Knowledge - Help or Hindrance?

[praetoritevong]

Hey all,

I just wanted to bring out something that annoyed me a little while ago following the release of Death to the Double Undercut. I posted this opinion in the main thread, which I'll quote here - you may also want to have a look at the DttDU "review" to understand fully what I'm saying in this quote. I also wanted to expand my thoughts a little. This will be a long post, please bear with me.

I have only been in magic for 18 months. I'm totally aware that compared to a lot of people on these and other forums, I know nothing, my knowledge is terrible. For the first 6-10 months, I barely improved - I essentially knew nothing about magic. I don't know the classics, I don't know the origins of moves, or anything like that.

A lot of people here know much more than I do, especially when I was a beginner. There are some wonderful people that I respect a lot on these forums; but at the same time, there are knowledgeable people who come off as elitist and egotistical. Rather than being helpful in their knowledge, they don't advance the art of magic because they are content to sit on their knowledge, knowing that they know, but not willing to offer the least bit of help to other magicians - beginners, like I was.

Truth is, I never had a mentor. The reason I took 6-10 months to learn ethical magic - stuff about exposure, about free magic, about research and practice and all these basic things - was because I didn't learn about magic from anywhere. I learned magic tricks from the internet, and started buying products when I realised it was the right thing to do - but I never learned about magic. I wanted to learn from someone. Why didn't I?

The first person I considered talking to magic about was a student at my school, who'd been performing magic for twelve years. When I first saw him perform I was amazed. I was also a beginner. When I talked to him afterwards about magic, it became obvious I was a beginner. But where he could've pointed out mistakes, he laughed at me. Where I could've improved, I was met with rudeness and ignored and mocked.

The second person I approached about magic was the owner of my local shop. This story is covered in my other post which appears below, but I want to repeat it. I asked a silly question about mini-decks. I didn't know they came in that size, one month after beginning magic. The owner looked at me condescendingly, laughed at me, berated me, and offered me a somewhat irritated and sneering look. Another person, who could've helped me improve. Another person with knowledge.

Instead, both decided to be elitist. I'm sure they had great laughs over me being new. I'm sure a few guys in the "review" thread (and I use that term loosely) had great laughs over another beginner, not knowing what to do.

I almost quit magic because of it.

If you do this, what will the next beginner do?

I now quote a post I made in the main DttDU thread.

Ok, guys, I just wanna say something that does NOT judge the quality of the new 1 on 1, I don't feel like putting my opinion out there. However, I did see something quite irritating.

Namely, that quite a few people need to get off their high and mighty thrones and get real. The argument against Death to the Double Undercut (DttDU) - mainly - has been that it's not fair to charge beginners for something like this. Ok, I understand that.

Then, I went to a review of this cut, where a beginner asked if the review was good or bad.

What did everyone do?

They completely ignored him, a beginner, and continued with their mocking sarcasm. Not good enough.

These beginners that we're so eagerly fighting to save, well, the minute that beginner wants a serious opinion, do we give him one? No, no-one answers him. Why? Because those few members were so utterly caught up in their own high horses, continuing with the sarcasm, being no help at all. They don't want to help beginners they want to boost their egos by berating and carrying on like they're the intellectual geniuses of the world, frolicking in their ability to write sarcasm. They say "Oh I'm just helping the beginners" but they are hypocritical, the only reason they criticise DttDU is to be critical and condemning and basically grind it for whatever it's worth, they don't help the beginner, they ignore him so they can all be "clever" and "cool" and "funny" and laugh at their sarcastic posts.

It took 9 posts for someone to answer the guy's question.

Why? I don't understand, someone asks a question, ok, he's a beginner. Ok, you think the product is crap. Why get so caught up in your arrogance? Cause that's what it comes off as, it comes off as so arrogant. "/facepalm" to this beginner. And yet, "It's unfair to beginners". That's bull, that's shameful and ignorant, I'm sorry but it's true. Why, why can you not seriously answer a beginner's question? I don't understand, all that thread was was "Let's be sarcastic and clever and pay out DttDU!" Only it wasn't clever. Not at all. There's a time and place for sarcasm guys. Some of it may be warranted now. But when all you care about is delighting in your in jokes and making yourself seem cool and laugh along and beat a product down, and then you hide behind "Oh yes, I'm just helping the beginner..." That's not helping, that's being egotistical. Don't think so highly about yourselves. I didn't read all of Rabid's posts, but one stood out: Get used to the real world, guys. When you stop getting pocket money and leave that sheltered life, you're gonna get nowhere.

Grow up, I know you don't like the product, but seriously? Like, are you serious? Cut the crap, cut the sarcasm ok? Just a little bit? It makes you look pompous and elitist.

When I first started magic, the owner of the local magic shop could see it straight away. Did he help me? No, he looked and spoke to me condescendingly. He made me feel bad for being a beginner, he made it sound like it was my fault for not knowing. This is elitism. I wanted to look at a custom deck because I had never seen one before. He said, "What do you need to look at them for? You haven't been in magic very long have you?" He dismissed me, and didn't answer the question.

That almost drove me out of magic. One month into magic, I was humiliated and irritated and treated condescendingly.

Knowledgable magicians my effing ass.

Think about what you're doing.

Get over yourselves, I'm ashamed to be a part of this forum right now.

Think what you want of the 1 on 1. I don't care. But treat the beginners right. If we are elitist and condescending and refuse our ability to type a few simple words - how hard can that be? - well, then we have a problem, and it isn't YouTube. There are so many complaints about YouTube magicians. If this is their example, if this has been their experience, I don't blame them, and furthermore I think we need to look at ourselves, because arguably, this is worse.

Complaints are often justified. Sarcasm has it's place. This, though, was ridiculous.

There is a lot of knowledge here. How are you using yours?

Peace

 

[ElisG]

I completely agree, don't have anything to add really, but you are one of the few remaining posters who can have a great debate without bashing.

I've been very lucky to have met a really cool magician who helped me and invited me to a session night every week, so I don't know what it feels like to be laughed at really, but I'm sure it's extremely disheartening so we all need to make sure we don't do it, imo.

 

[praetoritevong]

Thanks ElisG, again, I really appreciate your comments.

I just wanted to mention here some other opinions in the same thread:

On sustained, persistent sarcasm:

Wow, I'm about fed up with this place. To the OP- you fail in an epic way. As well as the rest of you trying to act all cool and smart by bashing theory11. All you're doing is making yourself look like an arrogant *******.

You guys are "all about helping the noobs" when you're bashing this 1on1, but when they read this, they're probably thinking, "God, magic is just full of a bunch of jerks. I don't want to do this."

So by doing this stupid stuff (especially this stupid "review"), you're probably causing people to get out of magic, instead of "helping them".

Wow, the fact that this thread has even gotten 3 pages is just pain ridiculous. If your going to post a sarcastic review, at least say its sarcastic (hell, dont post it at all). I came here looking for an actual review of the product, as I was considering using it for a quick way to cut a card to the bottom without using the Double Undercut. Now i dont even know what to say, about these forums in general. I mean seriously? Whatever.....

p.s. Ive liked all of Joel's other 1 on 1's and can't wait for more from him.

Okay, that was definitely not necessary and uncalled for.

Apparently, it's not just me, but some people see this same thing. I mean, take these opinions:

i cant believe you guys....i use the double udnercut all the time as well, but an alternate way to do it is a good idea, instead of using the same method over and over

I love this cut, im a beginner.

I thought it was worth every penny.

These guys liked it. Good for them, if it builds their skills. Of course, someone has to be an arrogant halfwit and be condescending - because, of course, they think they are far greater than this mere thing:

***PUKES***

xP

What can you expect of someone if this is the treatment beginners get? Sarcasm, derision, alienation. The expansion of magic will never derive from alienation.

Peace

 

[MaGiK Man]

wow i completely agree with this as well, great post, and i hope that people listen to this cuz it was getting out of control.

 

[Sean_Raf]

A man after my own heart, nice post Prae'.

A nice example is Jordan Lapping, extremely knowledgeable and gives advice in a warm and very helpful way.

I don't see how people expect to progress the art by downplaying beginners, we were beginners once. I, similar to Praetoritevong (I typed that without looking, do I get a cookie?) never really understood the ethics of magic at first and was learning tricks via youtube. Sites like Ellusionist, Penguin Magic, Theory11 (which I found eventually) put me on the right path, but it wasn't only the sites - it was the community that respected the art and were willing to help. What I'm seeing more recently on Theory11 (which quite literally has become my magic home) is quite the opposite - unfriendly, unhelpful, elitist and unthankful; and this saddens me.

I've still yet to join a magic circle, I've emailed my local one (2.5 weeks ago and still no response) and the more I read, the more I think whether I'm actually going to benefit from it or whether I'm going to be looked down on for only being in magic for coming up to 3 years now.

C'mon guys, it's just not funny anymore.

- Sean

 

[ElisG]

A nice example is Jordan Lapping, extremely knowledgeable and gives advice in a warm and very helpful way.

Yeah, and he's like one of the most liked people on teh internets . So I guess that's the way to go.

 

[Toby]

Everyone of us was a beginner. Just look back and try to remember how you did, and what you did back then.
Im in magic for about 14 months, and when i started i went on youtoube to find more David Blaine videos (because his TV special got me interested in magic), and by looking for that, i came across (sp.) some tutorials of card tricks and sleights. Only things that i learned from youtube was snap change, Braue pop up move, 2CM and some simple false cut. Than i went to David Blaines official site to see if he is selling some teaching material or something, and there i found a link to Ellusionist. I went to E, ordered How to do Street Magic, and ever since then, i've been paying for the tricks.

I was practising alone inside the 4 walls of my room for a year. With noone to ask for something, with noones oppinions (im talking about professional oppinion, not my mom's). Then i came here, to T11, i signed up 1. September, only a day after it start working. And you guys helped me alot. I got some great advice (about Royal Road, etc), and understanding and all that stuff, and i thank you alot. But now this forum changed, everyday more threads are being closed and more people are being bashed and the atmosphere arround here is not half as good as it was in the begining. If i stumbled across this forum now (and if i was a beginner now), i would deffinetly got the hell out of here. So just think about it for a minute, put yourself in the position of a beginner now, today, and try to understand what praetorian is trying to say...

Luckily (sp.) i found a Magic Club in my city, and most famous magicians in my country are there, and they are helping me alot these days, and i know how important is to have someone to teach you, to give you an advice, to give you honest oppinion and a solution to the problem if there is one. And you guys are those people to the beginners who come here and seek for help...

Maybe i got a little off topic, i was just giving my expirience as a beginner.

Cheers

 

[praetoritevong]

A man after my own heart, nice post Prae'.

A nice example is Jordan Lapping, extremely knowledgeable and gives advice in a warm and very helpful way.

I don't see how people expect to progress the art by downplaying beginners, we were beginners once. I, similar to Praetoritevong (I typed that without looking, do I get a cookie?) never really understood the ethics of magic at first and was learning tricks via youtube. Sites like Ellusionist, Penguin Magic, Theory11 (which I found eventually) put me on the right path, but it wasn't only the sites - it was the community that respected the art and were willing to help. What I'm seeing more recently on Theory11 (which quite literally has become my magic home) is quite the opposite - unfriendly, unhelpful, elitist and unthankful; and this saddens me.

I've still yet to join a magic circle, I've emailed my local one (2.5 weeks ago and still no response) and the more I read, the more I think whether I'm actually going to benefit from it or whether I'm going to be looked down on for only being in magic for coming up to 3 years now.

C'mon guys, it's just not funny anymore.

- Sean

Cookies for all! That is impressive Sean...

But yeah, I totally agree, ditto with my magic circle. You know, the funny thing is, I was just thinking the other night - the first guy, the guy from school. He's the one person I have never told I perform magic. In fact, I'm subconsciously still afraid of running into him at a magic community event - which is why I don't attend many, and probably why I was slow to learn. I don't doubt that it's partially just because of my personality - but that's the sort of effect this can have.

I checked these boards daily for months before I started posting here, and when I finally did, it was because it had helped me, and when I first started posting, it was only threads I could directly answer questions to, that's so important.

Peace

 

[Toby]

Everyone of us was a beginner. Just look back and try to remember how you did, and what you did back then.
Im in magic for about 14 months, and when i started i went on youtoube to find more David Blaine videos (because his TV special got me interested in magic), and by looking for that, i came across (sp.) some tutorials of card tricks and sleights. Only things that i learned from youtube was snap change, Braue pop up move, 2CM and some simple false cut. Than i went to David Blaines official site to see if he is selling some teaching material or something, and there i found a link to Ellusionist. I went to E, ordered How to do Street Magic, and ever since then, i've been paying for the tricks.

I was practising alone inside the 4 walls of my room for a year. With noone to ask for something, with noones oppinions (im talking about professional oppinion, not my mom's). Then i came here, to T11, i signed up 1. September, only a day after it start working. And you guys helped me alot. I got some great advice (about Royal Road, etc), and understanding and all that stuff, and i thank you alot. But now this forum changed, everyday more threads are being closed and more people are being bashed and the atmosphere arround here is not half as good as it was in the begining. If i stumbled across this forum now (and if i was a beginner now), i would deffinetly got the hell out of here. So just think about it for a minute, put yourself in the position of a beginner now, today, and try to understand what praetoritevong is trying to say...

Luckily (sp.) i found a Magic Club in my city, and most famous magicians in my country are there, and they are helping me alot these days, and i know how important is to have someone to teach you, to give you an advice, to give you honest oppinion and a solution to the problem if there is one. And you guys are those people to the beginners who come here and seek for help...

Maybe i got a little off topic, i was just giving my expirience as a beginner.

Cheers

Edit: Sean_Raf, i would go to that club if a was you, i went to such a club (as stated above), and it is the best thing that happend to my magic. And if it's bad club, you can always leave

Cheers mate

 

[Sean_Raf]

First off: w00t, cookies.

Second: I have a similar magic shop story.

I'd been doing magic for about 3-4 months? And this is when I was still a bit unethical (zomg youtube) and I went to a magic shop; there are none in my city so I took advantage of a school trip to London.

After being at one shop and spending about 2 hours there, me and my friends moved onto the second where I had gained the courage to show the owner something. Midway into the trick, he openly said "Do you need that pinky break there?" and it completely threw me off; I finished the trick and he said "Well done" rather dryly and almost immediately pulled out a deck of cards and started doing another trick and stating how he'd spent 2 years trying to get Bicycle to make stripper cards.

I felt kind've foolish and rather annoyed, putting me off further visits to the shop again (I have since been, and the guy still seems as arrogant towards me). But looking back on it, I feel quite ashamed of him, rather than helping me with my breaks he merely made a smarmy comment on it and ignored me completely.

Is it just me or am I failing to see how this is furthering the art of magic? =\

- Sean

 

[praetoritevong]

Not just you man... I too have been back, and he's still the same also. Funny thing is, I still go there - but only when I know an assistant is on duty, and not him, and they're wonderful guys. I asked about the size difference of a porper once between the regular and E sized ones. He stabbed a deck of Guardians into the regular porper (there was an inch between the inner end of the deck and the spine of the porper), and said to me, "See? Fits perfect!" At which point his assistant told me that yes, I'd have to get the larger ones from E. After I left the shop, the owner berated the assistant for not lying to me and for losing a potential sale.

Thing is, it's not just me that gets affected by his bad attitude, it's everyone who goes in there. Now I didn't mean to turn it into my sob story, but he's the same still, just as condescending.

Again, back to the purpose of this topic, please don't become like that, there are some who are crossing the border into that sort of behaviour, and no, it doesn't further magic.

Peace

 

[Dima]

First off: w00t, cookies.

Second: I have a similar magic shop story.

I'd been doing magic for about 3-4 months? And this is when I was still a bit unethical (zomg youtube) and I went to a magic shop; there are none in my city so I took advantage of a school trip to London.

After being at one shop and spending about 2 hours there, me and my friends moved onto the second where I had gained the courage to show the owner something. Midway into the trick, he openly said "Do you need that pinky break there?" and it completely threw me off; I finished the trick and he said "Well done" rather dryly and almost immediately pulled out a deck of cards and started doing another trick and stating how he'd spent 2 years trying to get Bicycle to make stripper cards.

I felt kind've foolish and rather annoyed, putting me off further visits to the shop again (I have since been, and the guy still seems as arrogant towards me). But looking back on it, I feel quite ashamed of him, rather than helping me with my breaks he merely made a smarmy comment on it and ignored me completely.

Is it just me or am I failing to see how this is furthering the art of magic? =\

- Sean

It wasn't D********* was it?

I spent some time there a couple of years ago and bought a few decks. I was surprised and almost shocked to get a certain look of disapproval after i asked for the Stripper deck. Bloody gits.

We were all beginners once.

 

[Sean_Raf]

It wasn't D********* was it?

I spent some time there a couple of years ago and bought a few decks. I was surprised and almost shocked to get a certain look of disapproval after i asked for the Stripper deck. Bloody gits.

We were all beginners once.

Nope, not there, I've had nothing but good vibes. I was going to buy Kaos from there and asked the guy behind the counter whether it was any good. He told me that it's good for an impromptu card through window but at my level it's probably best to wait a bit; very helpful.

But back on topic.

- Sean

 

[Steerpike]

This highlights a problem I've been having with the magic community for some time now.

Magicians are extremely susceptible to massive ego problems. Now, I admit to be an unlikeable narcissistic twit. But even I look modest and down to earth in comparison to some of the attitudes I've seen going around.

And at Theory 11 I think it's particularly bad because of the emphasis on cardistry and flourishing. I'm going to get some flack for this, but in my experience flourishists (or whatever they're calling themselves now) have even bigger egos than magicians. I'm not going to claim to be an excellent psychologist, but if I had to hazard a guess it's because most of them spend countless hours on practicing their aerials and sybils and never learn how to connect with an audience.

It's ironic that in a performance art there is an affliction of its practitioners being completely unrelatable to other people.

The point is that all the scorn and derision newbies recieve is because of people who have forgotten what it was like to be a newbie and take their fumbles as a personal insult to the countless hours of work they put in. It's no longer about entertainment and art, it's about personal satisfaction and gratification.

 

[blahblah]

I agree... with everything

but I think the only way we can help anyone right now is to actually help them (yes it sounds stupid but its true)...

if someone asks ANOTHER question of what should I get next, and then lists some things they had in mind... dont tell them to stop all these threads, what could help instead is telling them about the products they are thinking about, whats good/bad about them, if its in there skill range. Give links to reviews of the products etc etc

if somone aks what the wire is, change etc etc, report the thread, give 1 post saying you have reported the thread so that we dont have 2 or 3 threads at the top of the forum (sp.) alll saying

"the wire???"

instead of 3 pages of "use the search button", which only annoys the person writing the thread and keeps it at the top of the page.

we could also write articles on subjects, like in the E forums they have pages of articles that can help your patter, creativity, presentation, routines... and the list goes on and on, these articles could help beginers wondering about somthing...

I think if more people write reviews (yes theres lots already but more cant hurt) then that would be good, (sean raf, that thread you made with all the links is awsome).

if we do this and more I think we can actually further the art, instead of complaining about whats happening to these forums why dont we actually do something!

just some ideas...

 

[Tyler Johnson]

And at Theory 11 I think it's particularly bad because of the emphasis on cardistry and flourishing. I'm going to get some flack for this, but in my experience flourishists.

Actually, I don't think this is the problem. The flourishing anyway and know that I'm defending flourishing because I'm a flourisher. I only do a little because I'm mostly a magician.

Anyway, if you visit the Dan & Dave forums, you'll notice that everyone there is very very kind! Beginner's post videos and they are corrected kindly by members of the communtiy for anything that was done wrong in the video. The beginners are also greatly praised for anything in the video that was done right! I've actually started spending more time over there because of how kind and helpful everyone is.

My assessment of T11's forum problem is the mass of teenagers. Now, I know that might sound strange coming from me because I'm only 18, but I've found that younger members have a stronger temper and lower tolerance level. Sure, we all hate seeing threads about "The Wire" (since there have been a million). BUT, the people starting these threads are beginners! They have no idea how long "The Wire" has been there, if there have been other threads on it, if the questions have been answered, so they ask. Answer them kindly. I've noticed that the beginners who start a "Wire" topic and are bashed like crazy from several members never post again. I wonder why? People just need to be more kind.

We're all magicians here and the purpose of these forums is to help each other. This isn't a little online club where you can meet people, it's an online community where we help each other and grow off of each other. "Iron sharpens iron." That's all I have to say at the moment, but thanks for starting this thread praetoritevong (I did have to look back at that to spell it), I started one similar seven or eight months ago but it came to an end and was ignored by the very people that it was directed too. I just hope those same people read this topic. Peace!

Tyler

P.S. Even though you can sometimes get on peoples nerves Steerpike (including mine), we love having you here and we're glad you are here. At least you don't bash people when you give criticism.

 

[Steerpike]

P.S. Even though you can sometimes get on peoples nerves Steerpike (including mine), we love having you here and we're glad you are here. At least you don't bash people when you give criticism.

If I'm not pissing people off, I'm part of the problem instead of the solution. A lot of the users here are complacent and no one seems to want to call them on their idiocy. There's a lot of colossolly stupid ideas around here, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let them go unchallenged.

As for the teenagers remark, that probably has something to do with it. There's nothing more obnoxious than a teenager who still thinks he knows everything. And there are fewer things I take more sadistic glee in than watching them run face-first into a brick wall when they step out of mommy and daddy's house into the real world.

 

[Sean_Raf]

Do you want a cokkie? Ha ha ha ha

Did you want a lesson in how to read? I quite obviously wanted a cookie.

- Sean

P.S. Mods, you'd be forgiven for using common sense.

 

[praetoritevong]

A day later, it continues.

The hypocrisy and ignorance is astounding.

 

[blahblah]

they just want to argue, and their exuse is that you can go on youtube and learn it,

the same thing could be...

no! dont realese 5 speed, you can go on youtube or where ever and learn it for free! but they seem to have forgoten (sp.) all about those other 1 on 1s they loved but its still not totally origanal (sp.), if they want to have a row I think thats just whats going to happen...