A Quick Thought About Fast Improvements

[William Draven]

We all want to have fun with magic. Some of us want more though. Some of us aspire and dream of greater things than just watching our friends jaws drop to the floor at our amazing skills. Some of us want to make a living out of doing what we love, and friends- there is nothing wrong with that! Of course it could be said you need to put in long hours of practice, and study, learn how to market, how to book, how to do frankly a lot of things that even by themselves are pretty hard, let alone having to learn how to apply them to each other to make yourself successful. Volumes more of information could be written on this very subject, just as volumes have already been done, but that isn't the point or the goal of this thread. I want to simply challenge you to think about a small, very small point, and if you can grasp it, understand it, and god forbid actually apply it to your life, then there is nothing you can't achieve. In magic or abroad!

This isn't some sappy self motivational point either. It's not Zen, and it's no secret. It's a universal fact, and one I think everyone should know. You are a product of your environment. I'll say it again. You are a product of your environment. In short, you become what you surround yourself with.

In high school I had a few friends. I wasn't the most popular kid on the block, but I knew a lot of people. One of my friends, we'll call her Marissa, smoked a lot of pot, went to a lot of parties, and drank a lot of beer. Don't get me wrong, if you want to have a good time, there is no one better to be around, but that was just the kind of life she chose for herself. She worked along side me at the local Steak N Shake in my home town of Troy.

I had another friend of mine that I grew up with, Josh we'll say, who came from a good family, wasn't a valedictorian but he got good grades, he hung out with other scholarly minded students, and came from a family of highly educated parents.

I graduated with both of them, and Josh has gone on to his second year residency as a doctor working at a hospital, and Marissa... well I think she's still working at the Steak N Shake- Though I hear she is planning to make manager by sometime next fall.

My point is this: what ever your goal in life is, be it a magician, a doctor, or even a restaurant manager, you need to surround yourself with people that you respect who are successful at doing what you want to do, and then figure out WHY they are successful, and then copy them. If you want to make a million dollars, you don't want to hang around with the guys working at McDonald's on the cook line. Chances are pretty good they won't have a clue. If you want to make a million, find out who has made a million, and then become their new best friend.

To relate this lesson to magic, if you want to be a better magician first find a magician that you really respect, then examine what they do that makes you respect them, then ask yourself why do you think they are successful, and then try to emulate those habits in your own life. If your lucky enough to meet them, become friends with them, and when ever they are around to share their knowledge shut up, and take notes!

Just a thought, I hope you can find it useful.

Cheers,
William Draven

 

[joshrobarts]

i kinda disagree with a lot of your points, on a personal level. The idea that the road to success is paved by those you latch onto and ride up with and those you step over and dont let drag you down is a depressing one. Also that to be a successful magician you need to find a magician to aspire to may work for some, but i think its a bit short sited also. That will only lead to repetition within the artform, id much rather aspire to be something never before seen. Think of Slydini for example, if he had chosen to follow others, rather than essentially re-invent close-up magic, he wouldn't have done half as much as he did. On a more personal level i have several friends from all aspects of life. Some are all american goody goody's who will no doubt be married by age 23 with 2.4 kids a nice house and white picket fence, and they are ok to be around sometimes, but i also have friends who will never make it past a mechanics garage, and you know what, i like them too. People are more than what they become, and more than their choices, if they fulfill you in some manner of your life, why write them off? I'd rather hang out with a hobo that gets me and i can have a conversation with than a CEO who's a dick. also, success often has an adverse effect on people making them douche's and unpleasant to be around, or impossible to get to know. I can think of no better example than magicians. anyone that has gone to a convention knows how hard it is to get a Pro to pay half a seconds attention to you if your not buying something from them. Success has made several of them completely disregard talking to those who aren't at the same level. Now im not implying that all Pro's owe every up and coming magician time, but your at a convention with others, and if someone is trying to engage you in active conversation and they never stand a chance, thats a product of your success. I can think of several magicians, some who have only just recently gotten a minor amount of success who have already distanced themselves from their past status, or old pro's who wont talk with anyone who isn't working on a similar level, and it comes off as just Elitist behavior thats disgusting. In contrast, when i think of those who took the time to make an effort, Chris Kenner, Wayne Houchin, Dan Sperry, those names will stick out in my mind forever, those guys have friends that are pro's, friends that will never be pro's but on a personal level there was some value, and thats what life is about.

 

[William Draven]

Josh, I can respect what you had to say there, but I think your not seeing the bigger picture here. When you use words like "latch on to" and "ride up with", I really think puts things into a very negative perspective.

That's not the point of what I am saying at all. I'm simply saying you're a product of who you learn from. You don't go to law school to learn to be a doctor.

If you want to be successful, don't ask someone who doesn't have a success story how to do it.

Sure all those magicians you named are very different in their art, and nor should you aspire to be a clone of them whole sale. However they are successful for a reason. They each exhibit similar habits that help drive their success. Those same habits are universal to everyone, and as such should be the focus of personal study.

If you want to have a good friend, then sure, that hobo you mentioned may be the way to go. But if you want to learn how to close contracts, open new business, and make sales, then you're chips are better waged on the CEO. He may be a jerk, but he's a jerk that knows what hes doing. It's all relative. Am I making any sense, or am I just rambling at this point?

 

[Randy]

Eh, this is a very old cliche in entertainment. That is true and will always be true. It's always about who you know. Though, really if somebody was working part time at McDonalds, while also working on a future goal on the side. Who's to say they will always work at McDonalds..

 

[joshrobarts]

While agree that business should be about finding successful tactics, my issue was that you seemed to express that a person's entire life should be approached with that cold business like tenacity. I think there is room to separate business and personal life. Beyond that i would probably agree much more with your points with the warning that several people that have experienced success have done so at cost to others, which is not something that is always recognizable at first and is not something to always be revered.

 

[mehar]

@Draven my dad's always drilling that concept of ''you are a product of your environment.'' I agree with it quite a lot, especially for the above reasons you listed. I think it also kind of relates to what Dale Carnegie said, "Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn from him."

 

[Rev]

No offence, but I don't really agree with this. I have spent most of my life hanging around with stoners, goths and metal-heads. Most of my friends (whom I have known since school) are either working low paid, tedious jobs or are unemployed wasters. But they are good people, good drinking buddies and fun to be around and that's why I hang out with them. I have, however, never felt the need to join in the pot smoking or quit a job just because 'my boss kept telling me what to do' (yes, one if my friends actually quit a job for that reason!).

I, on the other hand, got great grades at school, got a Biology degree, made a lot of money working as an accountant for three and a half years and I am now back at Uni doing postgraduate course in teaching. I have wanted to be a teacher my whole life and the fact that my oldest friends have no aspirations beyond seeing how much Jagermeister they can down on a Friday night has not affected that at all. I knew what I wanted and worked hard to achieve it. I am unusual in my friendship circle in that I do aspire to more than most of them and of course, my friends we're supportive of this, regardless of their aspirations in life, and that's why I am glad I have had them as friends for so long.

I think what I am trying to say is, you don't need to be surrounded by people who are are successful at what you want to do with the hope that their success will rub off on you/ you can imitate them/copy them/get advice from them. You just need people who will support your decisions and encourage you to be the best you can.

I didn't choose my friends based on what they wanted to do with their life. I choose them because they are good people and accepted and supported what I wanted to do with mine, and for that reason alone, they will most life be friends for life.

Rev

 

[mehar]

I think what I am trying to say is, you don't need to be surrounded by people who are are successful at what you want to do with the hope that their success will rub off on you/ you can imitate them/copy them/get advice from them. You just need people who will support your decisions and encourage you to be the best you can.

I didn't choose my friends based on what they wanted to do with their life. I choose them because they are good people and accepted and supported what I wanted to do with mine, and for that reason alone, they will most life be friends for life.

Rev

I think Draven is saying [correct me if I'm wrong] that if you surround yourself with successful people, success is more likely to come to you. I don't think he's saying that it's a guarantee way to make lots of money or be super successful. I think he meant that those people have certain mannerisms, thoughts, and feelings that are valuable, and when you are with those people you will subconsciously emulate what they do. When you are with a guy who's successful, you'll eventually meet different successful people, who will be able to help you do whatever you need. As Napoleon Hill says, you'll have a "mastermind group" full of people from all different successes who can be valuable assets.

I apologize if I'm hitting this the wrong way.

 

[William Draven]

Mehar's got it. I'm not trying to tell you who you can, and can't be friends with. I'm just simply saying if you want to be good at doing something, first find someone whose already good at doing it, find out what they do, why it works for them, and then emulate.

 

[gavinross]

Draven has some absolute Gold advice in his original post. I own my own marketing business (outside of working in radiology) and his comments are right on when he speaks about finding people that are at where you want to be in life and then duplicate their success patterns. This is so important to surround yourself with likeminded people that are ahead of you because it will motivate you to achieve more - instead of being comforted by associating with those who have achieved less. I'm not saying those people are bad, but remember people are like elevators: They either take you up, take you down, or take you nowhere. The awesome thing is you have complete choice over who you associate with. To Rev: I believe you are the rare exception to this rule, b/c generally speaking you are the average of your 5 closest friends (income wise, temperament wise, ambition wise etc). This has been studied extensively by multimillionaire after multimillionaire in books such as how to win friends and influence people, magic of thinking big, think and grow rich, rich dad poor dad etc etc. And it can be applied to all areas of your life; if you want a better marriage, counsel with a couple that has been happily married for 20 years (they know something that your neighbor going through his 3rd divorce does not know).
Now to apply this thought process to magic, how many of you have heard how important mentors have been in the lives of our favorite magicians? Aaron Fisher talks about it incessantly. Once guys like Slydini learned the basics from mentors, he went in his own direction, but took counsel from mentors 1st.
PS: one last thing I wanted to touch on is the notion that somehow success leads one to become a jerk etc. This is rubbish. We all know CEOs who are asshats, but I can name you many who are not. Same goes for successful magicians, star basketball players, walmart employees etc etc. Their reaction to success (or lack there of)is their choice. As people we can only control 2 things ever 1) our actions 2) our attitudes. Obviously some are better at that then others.
I'll have to finish up this thought at another time, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents for what its worth. Thanks for the great topic Dravin.
-Tyler

 

[Steerpike]

A lot of people making a lot of excuses in this thread. And all of them seem to have this bizarre notion that associating with already successful people makes you a mooch or a sycophant or a parasite. Jesus...

The idea that the road to success is paved by those you latch onto and ride up with and those you step over and dont let drag you down is a depressing one.

Like this for example. You perceive associating with successful people to be a betrayal to those you already associate with.

Also that to be a successful magician you need to find a magician to aspire to may work for some, but i think its a bit short sited also. That will only lead to repetition within the artform, id much rather aspire to be something never before seen. Think of Slydini for example, if he had chosen to follow others, rather than essentially re-invent close-up magic, he wouldn't have done half as much as he did.

I can safely say that you missed the point. You seem rather caught up in a romantic notion of going it alone when you want success. But you're not John Wayne, or more accurately the characters that he played.

This is something I've been saying for a while now: many magicians have no good eye for realism. Everything is "should." The world should work this way. People should treat you this way. I should not have to do this or that. But in adopting this mindset, you miss out on the opportunities you want.

While agree that business should be about finding successful tactics, my issue was that you seemed to express that a person's entire life should be approached with that cold business like tenacity.

And you appear to be advocating doing away with pragmatism in favor of woulda-shoulda-coulda. Glass houses.

No offence, but I don't really agree with this. I have spent most of my life hanging around with stoners, goths and metal-heads. Most of my friends (whom I have known since school) are either working low paid, tedious jobs or are unemployed wasters. But they are good people, good drinking buddies and fun to be around and that's why I hang out with them. I have, however, never felt the need to join in the pot smoking or quit a job just because 'my boss kept telling me what to do' (yes, one if my friends actually quit a job for that reason!).

But do you ask any of them for advice on how to be successful?

I have wanted to be a teacher my whole life and the fact that my oldest friends have no aspirations beyond seeing how much Jagermeister they can down on a Friday night has not affected that at all.

Because you didn't ask them to guide you in those goals. Durr!

I think what I am trying to say is, you don't need to be surrounded by people who are are successful at what you want to do with the hope that their success will rub off on you/ you can imitate them/copy them/get advice from them.

Again, this bizarre idea that deliberately associating with successful people makes you a parasite. What is this, an after school special?

I have stoner friends too, but I don't ask them for business advice. I go to the movies with them. I go bar crawling with them. If I want to know how to bring my goals to fruition, I ask someone who's already made it. This isn't rocket science.

Everyone has their negative times in life and it's unreasonable to cut all them out of your life as some erroneously believed Will was suggesting. The key is not to get dragged down by them. Don't be around them in a situation where they are at their worst. That kind of negativity is a virus that will infect you and drag you down.

PS: one last thing I wanted to touch on is the notion that somehow success leads one to become a jerk etc. This is rubbish. We all know CEOs who are asshats, but I can name you many who are not. Same goes for successful magicians, star basketball players, walmart employees etc etc. Their reaction to success (or lack there of)is their choice. As people we can only control 2 things ever 1) our actions 2) our attitudes. Obviously some are better at that then others.

Finally, someone else who gets it. Most people using the line that successful people are all dicks are just making excuses not to try.

 

[Randy]

The other thing about some magicians acting like dicks when you try to talk to them at conventions is this. Have you ever been to a convention? They are stuffy, over crowded, and most of the guys there who are trying to sell their stuff. Have been sitting there for hours on end. I'd like to see anybody here not get cranky or act like a dick at that point.

 

[mehar]

how to win friends and influence people, magic of thinking big, think and grow rich, rich dad poor dad etc etc.

Bookbait - Some things are worth dying for.

 

[joshrobarts]

Like this for example. You perceive associating with successful people to be a betrayal to those you already associate with.

i dont see it as a betrayal, my point was more than choosing who you associate with solely on the basis of success is somewhat of a shallow practice and can have negative results.

I can safely say that you missed the point. You seem rather caught up in a romantic notion of going it alone when you want success. But you're not John Wayne, or more accurately the characters that he played.

again, im not saying that the idea is wrong, just that a specific individual you idolize and emulate isn't necessary. That individuals who choose to create something entirely new, to find their own path rather than take steps in others, is also an idea. Think about individuals like John Nash, Magellan, Galileo, they chose to explore new ideas rather than work from old. Im not saying im gonna go it alone, im sure i will meet several people who will influence me and help me, but im not looking to be the next David Blaine, im looking to be the FIRST Josh Robarts

Finally, someone else who gets it. Most people using the line that successful people are all dicks are just making excuses not to try.

Again my point wasn't that all successful people are pricks, rather that success should not automatically suggest they are someone to be admired and emulated, because the fact is there ARE successful people that got that way through shady methods, there are also unsuccessful people who got that way for the same reason, and unsuccessful people who just got a raw deal and are good people. There is a homeless guy in my town, he is a veteran, he doesn't beg, he does odd jobs around town for a pittance, lives in shelters, VOLUNTEERS at the soup kitchen, doesn't eat there. He graduated high school and went right into the military. He received an honorable discharge, came back and couldn't find a job. He's never done anything in his life but serve his country and be a good guy. He is smart, ive had tons of conversations with him, he spends his free time reading in the library, Hemmingway, Nietzsche, Freud, easily one of the most cultured and intelligent people ive ever talked with, but he also has no bank account, no drivers, license and only two pairs of clothes. My point is this, business is business and everyone wants to be successful, so find the best way to get there without compromising your ethics, but when the business day ends, go find people worth spending time with that dont care if you can buy a ferrari, who you can stand to be around, and who can help you develop morally, intellectually, and existentially, not fiscally. That was more my point Steerpike and Draven,

 

[Luis Vega]

Great Advice!!

For those who think this is wrong I think you can always find a balance...

I am an architect and I do my best to keep improving that´s why I work in a very important firm, because I want to learn the business but I still hang out with friends that have zero ambition...the key here is to focus on what do you want from each person or friend...my friends are awesome people and I have a great time with them...but I wouldn´t work with them, even when they also are architects...is maintaining the friends and work apart...as Steerpike somehow said before...

 

[Toby]

My my, I always admire these people who can make a simple thread and simple idea and complicate the whole thing by writing about something that wasn't even the point of the thread. Simple stuff, no one said that you should choose your friends by their success, but if you want to be successful at something ask someone else who is already successful in that feild for advice. You can hang out with stoners, killers and rapists, but don't ask them how to be a successful magician, since they obviously don't know how. It's as simple as that. Draven I completely agree.

 

[Steerpike]

i dont see it as a betrayal, my point was more than choosing who you associate with solely on the basis of success is somewhat of a shallow practice and can have negative results.

At what point did Will say that all of your friends must be rich and successful?

again, im not saying that the idea is wrong, just that a specific individual you idolize and emulate isn't necessary. That individuals who choose to create something entirely new, to find their own path rather than take steps in others, is also an idea. Think about individuals like John Nash, Magellan, Galileo, they chose to explore new ideas rather than work from old. Im not saying im gonna go it alone, im sure i will meet several people who will influence me and help me, but im not looking to be the next David Blaine, im looking to be the FIRST Josh Robarts

Funny you should mention David Blaine. You are aware that he worked out his persona and material for his first TV special with Paul Harris, yes?

My point is this, business is business and everyone wants to be successful, so find the best way to get there without compromising your ethics, but when the business day ends, go find people worth spending time with that dont care if you can buy a ferrari, who you can stand to be around, and who can help you develop morally, intellectually, and existentially, not fiscally.

And we said you shouldn't do this at what point?

 

[MarcusChristiansen]

Im not saying im gonna go it alone, im sure i will meet several people who will influence me and help me, but im not looking to be the next David Blaine, im looking to be the FIRST Josh Robarts

Look at it like an equation. For example; X + Y = Success. From a successful person you might learn what X is, from another you might learn what Y is. Then you use that to solve the equation. You do not necessarily need to copy David Blaine and his on-screen personality to find out what made him successful. You can take the X factor from him and mold it into your version of it. Learning from someone doesn't have to mean copying from him or her.

I might have made this more complicated instead of the opposite now. Oops.

 

[CaseyRudd]

Here's an analogy that can apply to this certain situation. This situation applies to ME, so I'm not trying to force this on anyone else; just my opinion.

Positive + Positive = Positive Outcome (when two positive people are hanging out and doing positive things, positive outcomes will follow)

Positive + Negative = Negative Outcome (mostly because negativity spreads and drags positive people into it. If you are talking to a negative person, you will start to feel negative.)

Negative + Negative = Positive (This can be contradictory. I mean this because when two negative people are together, it's like a Positive + Positive. They are "happy" with what is happening at that moment.)

It can be a bit confusing, but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[KeoSilver]

Hmm I am not going to take "surround ones self" as literally as some. Of course I surround myself with successful people, but that doesn't mean every single person I hang out with is successful. They may be happy with their lifestyle, but it isn't what I want to be. I wanted to be a stoner alcoholic instead I have ended up putting myself through college, got my own full medical coverage and working full time. Damn, maybe I am emulating the wrong attributes of my surrounding successful people.

Choose the attributes of your friends carefully...you may not like what you get in the end.