Cardistry may be a good convincer for card magic

Josh Burch

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I was listening to the Andy Nyman podcast that was just posted and it got me thinking a bit. There was a question that had to do with the sciences explaining our magic. In Nyman's magic the audience attributes his magic not to mystical magical powers but to some type of "science". Nyman explains that he prefers to have his magic rooted in the believable and possible.

I don't perform a lot of mentalism so I was trying to relate this to card magic. It is traditionally said in magic that we avoid flourishes so that the audience doesn't think we are performing our "magic" using sleight of hand. I know this forum topic comes up a lot but I feel like Nyman's comment is relevant. In this train of thought it might be wise to make the audience think that the reason you can do the things you do is BECAUSE of your skill in manipulation. What do you think?
 

theSunnyG

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I think that depends on what type of character you are when you perform.

If you want to show skill in manipulation, like, say a gambling routine, then I think cardistry will help emphasize that, and the audience will believe you can achieve those feats because of your skill.
But if you want to display what you are performing as 'real' magic and give a sense of wonder more than a kind-of-logical method, then I think keeping the flourishes to a minimum is best.

I also think it depends on your audience, for example, since my friends and family know that I flourish and am skilled with cards, then I will show tricks to them with a patter and performance in that style. However, if I perform to strangers I take more of a magical stance, if that makes sense.
 

wZEnigma

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I think this is a terrible idea, personally. I think everything should seem strictly magic, as if you're an idiot savant of sorts - you can cause magical things to happen smoothly without apparent deception. It should be smooth, of course, but not show-offy. My 2 cents.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Here is an old essay I wrote on the subject that was posted on another forum.....

Most people wouldn’t peg me for a “Cardist”, “XCMer”, or whatever term you want to ascribe to the modern wave of flourishing. If nothing else my age (mid thirties) would tend to type cast me among the “Red Backed Bike Nazis” who seem to insist the magician displays only modest skill with a deck of cards and is never caught with a deck of cards that could not be bought at the corner drug store or found in the average suburban home. At my age I am supposed to be studying my classics and preaching the gospel of “naturalness.” The truth is that I do study the classics, and there is a lot to be said for “naturalness,” but there is also room, and lots of it, to explore the other side of the spectrum. Lee Asher, who was perhaps one of the first of the “Post-Modern” card masters, said it perhaps the best, "Some people strive to be as natural as possible when performing magic. I, on the other hand, want to be super-natural." That line really spoke to me and has influenced much of my interest in flashy knucklebusting moves(Clip shifts, Diving Board Double, Etc.) and flourishing style(light on classic spreads, heavy on packet cuts and aerials)

With that admission under my belt, and a hint at where those views come from, the next question that arises is, “How can you combine cardistry with magic?” Many, on both sides of the coin, view each other as distant cousins, not close knit brothers. That, in my opinion, is a terrible shame. Perhaps the best example of what can be accomplished by closely weaving magic and cardistry together come from the Buck twins. In particular, their renditions of Bill Goodwin’s, “The Queens” and Aaron Fisher’s, “Hello, Goodbye,” elevate those effects from being stunning magic to being stunningly beautiful magic. The Bucks added not more than a small touch to each but it was a significant one indeed.

So lets assume that by now you have either bought into my arguments or you haven’t. I won’t offer any more so if you still can’t stomach the thought of cardistry and magic existing in the same space then it will do you little good to read further. That leaves us with those that are interested in the idea of weaving these two art forms more closely together. How do we do this? Well the most direct answer is to turn our “weaving” metaphor on its head. In short, it can be well done provided we do carefully “weave” them together, as opposed to “smashing” them together. It is important to understand when it is appropriate to mix the two and when one merely distracts from the other.

First it is important to understand what we are telling an audience when we perform a flourish. We are telling them upfront and boldly that we are masters of our craft. We are exhibiting a level of skill that few in the world possess. In a brutal Darwinian sense, it is a dominance display. The cards flipping around our hands are our peacock feathers, our antlers, our waddle . Now it is important to understand what this behavior is telling an audience. By flourishing you are “showing off,” and demonstrating Alpha male/female behavior. There are certainly times when being the Alpha is beneficial to a magician(crowd control, heckler management, etc.) but there are also times when this behavior might be detrimental. For one, everyone likes “their” alpha. Only problem is, you are not “their” alpha…at least not yet. Certainly a magician wants to grab attention quickly with an effect that establishes credibility but adding a flourish in that first trick may be premature. Flourishing is blatantly showing off and before it should be introduced you should have already made friends with your audience otherwise you risk creating more hecklers than any powerful trick, witty line, or display of cardistry could ever shut up. In other words, become their Alpha. There have been several times when, in the midst of a performance, I could feel my hands start to lose control of the packets I was twirling around my fingers. Instead of my audience groaning and thinking, “geeze dude! Give it up! You suck!” I could hear them almost cheering me on. There was suspense in the air as the audience anticipated the possibilities of success or failure of a complicated cut…the trick hadn’t even begun yet! Why did I get the, “Can he do it? Can he do it!? YES! He DID IT!” [applause] reaction instead of the “give it up dude!” reaction? I attribute it to the fact that they liked me. That’s all. They liked me. So my first guideline is to be sure they like you before adding flourishing into a magic set.

The next issue to consider is the character of the effects you are performing. I can best describe this by giving two examples of where flourishing has worked for me and where it fell short. Two effects that I love performing are Joshua Jay's “The Big Deal” and Paul Harris’s “Twilight Angels.” For various reasons I feel that both of these effects belong within the context of an ACR. I used to use almost the same introductory moves to the ACRs I had built for each finally, including a series of false XCM packet cuts. After several months of experimenting with the two routines I found that “The Big Deal,” at its heart an in the hands version of a gambling demo, played bigger with the XCM, but Twilight Angels played better without. Why would TA play better without XCM? Because of the character of the effect. My purpose for putting TA within the confines of an ACR was to dispel the notion of a gaffed card. Unfortunately, with XCM included I was drawing attention to the fact that I was really good with cards and thus the possibility that I had been using a gaffed card all along was perhaps in the back of some spectators minds. Why did the gambling demo go better with the XCM cuts. Because A: it completely dispelled the possibility of the actual method used, and B: the whole point of a gambling demo is to display mastery of a deck of cards. The XCM cuts essentially heightened the illusion of that mastery.

The final thing to consider when deciding whether or not to use cardistry or XCM is your character as a performer. This is something that only you can ultimately answer though I will offer a few ideas on the subject. As a general rule I would say that anyone who adopts a “clever con-man with a twinkle in his eye and a wry grin” type of persona can pull off cardistry without distracting from the performance. This whole character type is built upon the notion that you accomplish amazing feats through superhuman skill and highly trained reflexes. Cardistry exhibits this perfectly. Even a “bumbling klutz who has magical things happen to him as opposed to because of him,” could find a place for cardistry. See my above example of my experiences when it was obvious to the audience that I was about to drop the cards. While that example is of something that happened accidentally, it certainly could be used intentionally, and hammed up, for effect. My biggest caution with Cardistry and character would be for the “man of mystery” character types. Obvious displays of skill could, as I found it did with the TA effect, take away from this character. It is hard to maintain that mystique when you conspicuously display skills that , to the audience, look like sleight of hand.

So my in the final analysis, cardistry can, is, and should continue to be a close brother to your magic. Provided you take the time to consider your style, the impact and intent of the effect, and are careful not to present it as a “challenge” to your spectators you can add a lot of elegance and dash to your card magic set. Happy card juggling!
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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I agree with theSunnyG; it depends on the presentational style. If you're wanting to appear magical, then flourishing will detract from your efforts. It places your performance strictly into the realm of a physical skill akin to juggling. It's very difficult to make something like that seem truly magical. For the simple reason that the audience always has an explanation for the effect, ie: "I don't know how he did it exactly, but when he was doing all that stuff he must of moved the card" or whatever.

Also, flourishing is confusing to the spectator unless they are avid flourishers themselves. There's far too much movement in far too small a space to actually follow what's going on so the mind just sticks a blanket, "He's moving the cards around" label and doesn't bother trying to process it any more. Confusion is not magic.

I have always found that the least movement possible creates the most magical feeling. Seeing someone lay a card on the table, simply cover it with their hand and show it to have changed is far more magical than someone displaying a card, flipping and twirling it around for a bit, then showing it changed. All that movement is an explanation, therefore, not magical.

On the other hand if one is using a skill-based presentational style then flourishes will probably add to that. It is, after all, a display of skill. However, one should always keep in mind that any time there's a lot of movement, people will assume that moment is when something happened and have their explanation, whether it's remotely true or not.
 

Andrei

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Depends on your goal and presentation. If being "magical" or possessing some sort of supernatural ability is the goal, flourishes are probably best left out. If it's strictly for entertainment purposes, I think you can get away with backflips and summersaults. Overall, I think most people respond better when given a more "scientific" (or believable) approach to magic as opposed to the supernatural because it establishes mutual respect, and trust. Daniel Madison put it REALLY well in his artist manifesto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9gRCONfV8U
 

Josh Burch

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Andrei you hit it on the head! Exaclty! People don't want to be filled with fluff about pixie dust. People want to see real life human potential.

Is it more convincing to say that mentalism is real a display of mind reading? or a display of phsychological manipulation? The latter Andy Nyman believes to be true.

How can this be applied to card magic?

Is it more convincing to say that you have trained the cards as acrobats? or that you have trained your fingers to handle the cards in amazing ways?

Is it really believable to say that you have magical powers? Is any adult with a college degree going to buy that when you approach them asking them to pick a card? Possibly, but I think Nyman has a very valid point. Make your magic as close to reality as possible.
 

CaseyRudd

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I think that's why Mentalism isn't referred to as a branch of "magic". That's why a lot of mentalists get crossed when you compare their work to being magic effects. Mentalism isn't supposed to be "magic" in my opinion. What Nyman said really hit it on the head.

A lot of people who have been into magic for a long time will refuse to let the art of magic be turned away from making people believe what you are doing is strictly impossible. There is a new generation of very talented artists and young magicians that is on the way, and magic, in my opinion, is ready for change. It NEEDS to change. And we're always getting closer to that change.

I don't think everyday's layman is stupid. I don't expect them to truly believe that what we do is actual magic. It's a whole new generation of people, with technology becoming more and more advanced and powerful. People today are exposed to more information than people 50 years ago. Of course we need to keep the heart of magic alive, keep it beating, keep it pumping. But it can't be the same thing for too long. Too much of the same thing isn't always good.

Just something to think about.
 
Nov 2, 2007
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Whenever I do a trick for people I don't call it a magic trick or call myself a magician. It's simply a card trick, coin trick or whatever the objects I use trick. They know it's a trick, why would I take a title and use words that tries to convince people that it's real magic?
You can only create an illusion and you do so by being as fair as possible. Place the card on the table, rub it and it changes. Rub it too hard and it disappears. They know it's a trick, but it looks so clean that it might as well be magic. That's what I go for whenever I do a trick for someone. I don't claim anything, I just show them a trick and let them think whatever they want.
Doing any flourishes takes away from what I want to achieve. It just shows that you can do some crazy stuff with a deck of cards and it breaks the illusion.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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I was listening to the Andy Nyman podcast that was just posted and it got me thinking a bit. There was a question that had to do with the sciences explaining our magic. In Nyman's magic the audience attributes his magic not to mystical magical powers but to some type of "science". Nyman explains that he prefers to have his magic rooted in the believable and possible.

I don't perform a lot of mentalism so I was trying to relate this to card magic. It is traditionally said in magic that we avoid flourishes so that the audience doesn't think we are performing our "magic" using sleight of hand. I know this forum topic comes up a lot but I feel like Nyman's comment is relevant. In this train of thought it might be wise to make the audience think that the reason you can do the things you do is BECAUSE of your skill in manipulation. What do you think?

Absolutely agree. I posed that question to Mr Nyman with exactly this kind of idea in mind. By the way, for anyone who thinks that flourishes detract from magic, I refer you to Peter Lamont's research he presented at the EMC stating that simple flourishes before an ACR increased its impact. This would be supported by the Too Perfect Theory. Demonstrating dexterity before an effect which is not achieved by dexterity is an excellent way to throw the audience off the scent.
 

CaseyRudd

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Absolutely agree. I posed that question to Mr Nyman with exactly this kind of idea in mind. By the way, for anyone who thinks that flourishes detract from magic, I refer you to Peter Lamont's research he presented at the EMC stating that simple flourishes before an ACR increased its impact. This would be supported by the Too Perfect Theory. Demonstrating dexterity before an effect which is not achieved by dexterity is an excellent way to throw the audience off the scent.

I have also independently found this out when doing tricks before hand showing dexterity, then going into a very fair ACR where I make it look as fair as possible. When it comes to the top, they are completely dumbfounded because they didn't see anything happen, so they think "how could he have moved it to the top? I didn't see anything and I was looking really hard!". I love it when I get that reaction, and that's usually what I strive for when I perform it. I go from Dexterity, to very clean and fair, and then back to dexterity. It makes them think I did something, but it was superhumanly fast they could never catch it. Very interesting point. Thanks for reminding me about that!
 
Feb 4, 2008
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This quote was written in the broader context of presenting the magician as a Hero like figure.

If we take the audience to the point of crisis, where in order to make the shimmering point of magic occur we must invest effort in resolving the conflict, then understanding our intriguing skills will only enhance the drama. The opposite view is to say that such things as card flourishes have no place in magic for displays of skill are incompatible with the magic being real and independent of the performer's technique. But this is a flawed argument. To pretend that we are not using skill is daft and patronizing, and to display it to just the right degree to define our characters (or in another way to gain credibility early on), makes for more resonant relations with our audience.
- Derren Brown
 

WitchDocIsIn

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I think, also, we need to keep in mind the varying levels of 'flourishes'. Technically a fan is considered a flourish. Or a Faro shuffle with a bridge at the end. When I'm saying that flourishing detracts from a magical feeling, I'm referring to the complex, XCM style flourishing.
 

CaseyRudd

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I think it also is a different opinion when going to different age groups. The older group of audiences/people might not find flourishing all that great; they might not be as impressed as you like. However, when performing for young people like students that go to my school, or even college people, they are definitely fascinated by the dexterity and the flourishes. I always have people tell me to do "that fancy cut" at school because they think it's fascinating to look at. They know it takes skill and dexterity. I think, like I said, it's also a matter of what age group you are performing to when coming to a decision of performing flourishes.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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I think, also, we need to keep in mind the varying levels of 'flourishes'. Technically a fan is considered a flourish. Or a Faro shuffle with a bridge at the end. When I'm saying that flourishing detracts from a magical feeling, I'm referring to the complex, XCM style flourishing.
Well from personal experience I still think you are basically wrong. Derren Brown, in another part of the book, refers to a "fancy cut flourish," and essentially makes the same point. Now at the time he penned this book(2002 or 2003, can't remember exactly) one of the most fancy cuts used was a Sybil. Things have grown quite a bit since that time and he may have a different opinion with a really long, complex cut such as Jackson 5 or something like that.

As to the when and where, I'll refer back to my own essay that I re-posted here, but on the whole I don't think flourishes detract from the magic provided you are presenting your character as a "Hero Figure," as opposed to a "God Like Figure." I am just personally more comfortable with the former than the latter, and thus my experience with flourishing and magic have largely been positive.
 

Josh Burch

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Like Nyman said as beautiful as Copperfield's flying is 90% of the audience who sees it understands that it is an illusion. We have to give the audience a solution to our magic even if it is lie. If that is a believable solution the impact is much stronger.

In the end the most naive spectator understands that Ricky Jay's magic, or Bill Malone's is accomplished by sleight of hand.

Here's a good question, Lennart Green, Dani Daortiz or Juan Tamariz, what kind of a solution do they offer their spectator?
 
Nov 27, 2009
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... Here's a good question, Lennart Green, Dani Daortiz or Juan Tamariz, what kind of a solution do they offer their spectator?

When I've seen Lennart Green perform it's been for the scientific community at TED, or at EMC, so keep that in mind as you read my reply here. Often he patters on about memory, patterns and algorithms as being a method for his madness. I don't know if this is what he'd say to a "normal" non-TED, non-EMC audience, but it certainly gives a possible solution, even for laymen. He also adds some hints of dexterity to his performance. It all fits perfectly.

Juan, I have no clue what solutions he offers. I've seen a few videos, some of those in spanish, which I don't understand. Often I'm just so blown away by his magic that I don't remember much of his patter or his "method," I just remember the effect. I do remember one video where he suggested that a toy car knew the persons card, but thats not a "logical" solution for a layman because everyone knows that toy cars don't have brains.

Dani is another magician I've seen at EMC and on a few youtube clips. Generally he "plays dumb" by saying "I don't know how" frequently. I can't think of any clues he would be giving as to method because he uses his Character to hide open actions that are necessary for the trick to work. With the psychology he uses, there is no trace of how the trick is done in the spectators minds.
 

Josh Burch

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When I've seen Lennart Green perform it's been for the scientific community at TED, or at EMC, so keep that in mind as you read my reply here. Often he patters on about memory, patterns and algorithms as being a method for his madness. I don't know if this is what he'd say to a "normal" non-TED, non-EMC audience, but it certainly gives a possible solution, even for laymen. He also adds some hints of dexterity to his performance. It all fits perfectly.

Juan, I have no clue what solutions he offers. I've seen a few videos, some of those in spanish, which I don't understand. Often I'm just so blown away by his magic that I don't remember much of his patter or his "method," I just remember the effect. I do remember one video where he suggested that a toy car knew the persons card, but thats not a "logical" solution for a layman because everyone knows that toy cars don't have brains.

Dani is another magician I've seen at EMC and on a few youtube clips. Generally he "plays dumb" by saying "I don't know how" frequently. I can't think of any clues he would be giving as to method because he uses his Character to hide open actions that are necessary for the trick to work. With the psychology he uses, there is no trace of how the trick is done in the spectators minds.

Yeah come to think of it the audience leaves thinking that Lennart is some sort of a crazy super computer. That's very believable in his performance and it makes his magic that much stronger.
 

RealityOne

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We have to give the audience a solution to our magic even if it is lie. If that is a believable solution the impact is much stronger.

I disagree. I'm talking strictly about magic and not mentalism (I think that I agree that there needs to be some explanation in mentalism).

First, let's talk about giving methods other than skill. The "giving the audience a method" is frequently poorly done. The "I can sense the DNA from your fingerprint" explanation for finding a card is no more convincing that pixie dust. Most often the problem is with the magician's character -- the age and experience of the character doesn't support the type of knowledge that is necessary for the explanation. Further, the audience doesn't believe the "scientific" explanation any more then they do the pixie dust explanation. Part of this is why mentalism effects are more powerful without playing cards -- if you could read body language or influence people why would you use a deck a cards rather than something more powerful?

Second, let's talk about the "skill" angle. I think that Casey has a fair point -- demonstrating skill and then demonstrating something that cannot apparently be done by skill. But I think a lot of presentation is demonstrating skill and then demonstrating something that appears to use that same skill to accomplish the effect. For example, using a bunch of fancy cuts as a card control in an ACR... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the cuts moved the card to the top. Also, if you demonstrate skill, the audience (if they try to figure out an explanation) will attribute it to skill EVEN IF THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I once sat next to someone who tried to explain everything he saw in a magic show to his wife. I was cracking up at how wrong he was and at how certain he was about being right (like saying Kevin James uses magnets to float a rose).

So what is the answer? I think the answer is to present your magic in a way that the audience DOESN'T CARE about the method. This means not going out of the way to disprove a method (e.g. "please verify that every card is different and I'm not using a trick deck and that I don't have anything up my sleeve and that there are no mirrors....") but also not providing a possible method. This also means presenting a script for the effect that is BY ITSELF entertaining and that when combined with the effect makes the audience FORGET there is a method. Even better would be to perform in a way that makes the audience NOT WANT TO KNOW how it was done -- something so funny, entertaining or beautiful that they don't want to do anything to spoil it.
 

Josh Burch

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I disagree. I'm talking strictly about magic and not mentalism (I think that I agree that there needs to be some explanation in mentalism).

First, let's talk about giving methods other than skill. The "giving the audience a method" is frequently poorly done. The "I can sense the DNA from your fingerprint" explanation for finding a card is no more convincing that pixie dust. Most often the problem is with the magician's character -- the age and experience of the character doesn't support the type of knowledge that is necessary for the explanation. Further, the audience doesn't believe the "scientific" explanation any more then they do the pixie dust explanation. Part of this is why mentalism effects are more powerful without playing cards -- if you could read body language or influence people why would you use a deck a cards rather than something more powerful?

I feel like you're missing the point. I don't think mentalism is inherently "stronger" than card magic. The reason that we think of it as stronger is because it is strongly rooted in reality.

Think of a pick pocket routine. These this is very strong magic but the audience imagines the magician, or pickpocket being able to do these things in real life. The "science" is legitimate thievery.

Escapology is the same. The magician may never pick a lock the whole show. The idea is planted in the audiences head that if he was locked in prison he could escape. The "science" here is legitimate knowledge of the workings of a lock.

The same thing happens with mentalism. The audience imagines the magician using his knowledge of psychology in real life. The "science" here is psychology and suggestion.

When someone performs geek magic or body stunts the spectator marvels at the ability of the performer to control their own body. The "science" here might be self control.

When Ricky Jay performs his magic the audience is well aware that he is using gambling techniques to perform much of what he does. His "science" is poker cheats.If he were to refer to finger prints he wouldn't be believed.Nobody is going to believe you if you flat out lie about a fingerprint. They might believe you if they see you dust and lift the fingerprint like a real cop would.

When Dan and Dave do magic you attribute it to their ability to manipulate the cards. Even when they do an effect like "Static" the audience sees no reason to believe that they are using apparatus because they are convinced that these guys have that much control over the cards.

Is this the only way to create strong magic? No. But I believe, contrary to the classical mindset, that cardistry can be used to make card magic stronger.
 
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