Cardistry - What's The Point?
- Thread starter CaseyRudd
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This thread is really interesting, it's kind of making me question why I do half the things that I do. Partially cause I play piano, do graphic designs, and write and I'm thinking that maybe I'm not really being too much of an artist in really anything I do, but more of an interpreter. It makes me wonder what I could do to gain the level of "Artist".
Thanks for the insight man, I had a feeling that you would show up. BTW, take it easy on the "prediction" thing 
Now onto the debate
It is not biased in any way, those parameters exist for a reason. They are used in musical and art schools to teach students how to evaluate their own works and to criticise themselves into seeing if their work is truly "Art" or just an attempt at it. I'm not going to be like "I have a diploma in bla bla bla" because I have seen a lot of people do that here on the forums and I don't like it. Point being they are "guidelines" that are there in order for us to correctly work on our stuff.
Just as there are guidelines for poetry like "Poetica" by Aristoteles, there are also guidelines as to create "Art". There are quite some things to consider, but I used Music as an example because it is something we all can relate to.
yes we do
And respectfully I have to call you out once again on this point. Take a look at my previous post:
When I am talking about "commercial" I'm not talking about "Monetary" gain. The moment you create something with egoistical purposes behind that (like as I said, calling attention to yourself, being a show off, making money etc), it loses it's artistic value. While I respect the FACT that you started creating concepts in flourishing with the whole purpose of expressing yourself (Wich as I said before, makes you an Artist) take a look at all the posts in this thread:
I pretty much explained my point. No offense to the posters, but the main reason they do cardistry is because they enjoy it, and they like to show off.
And about cardistry videos? the same thing. They expect appraisal and good comments from the rest of the community. In other words, they are also "show offing".
Yes, it stops being "Art" at that point.
Take Bob Dylan or Cat power as examples. Bob dylan started making music because he wanted to share his political views with the rest of the people, he wanted to tell stories, he wanted to express himself.Money wasn't important to him to that point, and that's what made him popular with people, that's why he started getting recoignance from people as well. Once the beatlemania came to USA, he started thinking about money, he started thking about making catchy songs that would sell and less in creating a medium in wich people could express themself. That's why people started hating him and his music, in other words "he selled out".
Later he became aware of this and started his religion convertion, where he went back to his roots and the true meaning of why he did music.
Cat power on the other hand, just expresses herself, she has a ton of good music, and she could be really famous if she wanted, while she is still a recognisable lady, she just wants to express herself. But of course, you would die of hunger just creating this way, that's why her producers and managers take care of the monetary stuff. But in the end, the only thing that she cares about is "Art". Sharing emotions, stories and her feelings with the audience.
Yes, me. I really like cardistry, hell, I practice at leat 1 hour a day, I like it a lot. But still in this whole 4 years that I have seen how this grows with the Virts, The cuso, You, Dan and dave, etc etc etc. I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE CARDISTRY VIDEO THAT EXPRESSES SOMETHING ENTIRELY ON CARDS.
Yes, you can make your little video where everybody hates you, and laughs because you suck with cards, and then you practice practice practice, and then you demonstrate yourself and others how great you became at it. Yes, it is a story, but you cannot tell that through cards alone. You need theatrics, and (as I said before) music, to give your card juggling a meaning. Other wise (as I said) you are just juggling cards.
Nope I haven't seen it, and if somewhere down the road I see a cardistry performance that tells a story (Wich is highly unlikely but not impossible) believe me that I will be the first one to stand up, ovationate the dude and yell "wow THAT WAS ART".
I'm glad for you, but, how the H** can you demonstrate "anger" or etc with a sybil? you can make it pretty fast, you are telling nothing. Art is meant to be a message that can be shared. Even when you do not know what a painting is, you can give for a FACT that the painter was trying to share something with you. If people look at a sybil, believe me, their thoughts are going to be different. Yes you can put a angry face while doing a sybil, but for the people is just a demonstration of skill. Sometimes there is poetry that I don't understand, but it is a fact, that the author is trying to tell me something. You can't tell anything with cardistry.
Well I think that pretty much covers all your points, this is getting interesting, I missed debates like this in the forums. Thanks for the discussion man.
Now onto the debate
It is not biased in any way, those parameters exist for a reason. They are used in musical and art schools to teach students how to evaluate their own works and to criticise themselves into seeing if their work is truly "Art" or just an attempt at it. I'm not going to be like "I have a diploma in bla bla bla" because I have seen a lot of people do that here on the forums and I don't like it. Point being they are "guidelines" that are there in order for us to correctly work on our stuff.
Just as there are guidelines for poetry like "Poetica" by Aristoteles, there are also guidelines as to create "Art". There are quite some things to consider, but I used Music as an example because it is something we all can relate to.
yes we do
And respectfully I have to call you out once again on this point. Take a look at my previous post:
When I am talking about "commercial" I'm not talking about "Monetary" gain. The moment you create something with egoistical purposes behind that (like as I said, calling attention to yourself, being a show off, making money etc), it loses it's artistic value. While I respect the FACT that you started creating concepts in flourishing with the whole purpose of expressing yourself (Wich as I said before, makes you an Artist) take a look at all the posts in this thread:
I pretty much explained my point. No offense to the posters, but the main reason they do cardistry is because they enjoy it, and they like to show off.
And about cardistry videos? the same thing. They expect appraisal and good comments from the rest of the community. In other words, they are also "show offing".
Yes, it stops being "Art" at that point.
Take Bob Dylan or Cat power as examples. Bob dylan started making music because he wanted to share his political views with the rest of the people, he wanted to tell stories, he wanted to express himself.Money wasn't important to him to that point, and that's what made him popular with people, that's why he started getting recoignance from people as well. Once the beatlemania came to USA, he started thinking about money, he started thking about making catchy songs that would sell and less in creating a medium in wich people could express themself. That's why people started hating him and his music, in other words "he selled out".
Later he became aware of this and started his religion convertion, where he went back to his roots and the true meaning of why he did music.
Cat power on the other hand, just expresses herself, she has a ton of good music, and she could be really famous if she wanted, while she is still a recognisable lady, she just wants to express herself. But of course, you would die of hunger just creating this way, that's why her producers and managers take care of the monetary stuff. But in the end, the only thing that she cares about is "Art". Sharing emotions, stories and her feelings with the audience.
Yes, me. I really like cardistry, hell, I practice at leat 1 hour a day, I like it a lot. But still in this whole 4 years that I have seen how this grows with the Virts, The cuso, You, Dan and dave, etc etc etc. I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE CARDISTRY VIDEO THAT EXPRESSES SOMETHING ENTIRELY ON CARDS.
Yes, you can make your little video where everybody hates you, and laughs because you suck with cards, and then you practice practice practice, and then you demonstrate yourself and others how great you became at it. Yes, it is a story, but you cannot tell that through cards alone. You need theatrics, and (as I said before) music, to give your card juggling a meaning. Other wise (as I said) you are just juggling cards.
Nope I haven't seen it, and if somewhere down the road I see a cardistry performance that tells a story (Wich is highly unlikely but not impossible) believe me that I will be the first one to stand up, ovationate the dude and yell "wow THAT WAS ART".
I'm glad for you, but, how the H** can you demonstrate "anger" or etc with a sybil? you can make it pretty fast, you are telling nothing. Art is meant to be a message that can be shared. Even when you do not know what a painting is, you can give for a FACT that the painter was trying to share something with you. If people look at a sybil, believe me, their thoughts are going to be different. Yes you can put a angry face while doing a sybil, but for the people is just a demonstration of skill. Sometimes there is poetry that I don't understand, but it is a fact, that the author is trying to tell me something. You can't tell anything with cardistry.
Well I think that pretty much covers all your points, this is getting interesting, I missed debates like this in the forums
. Thanks for the discussion man.
In my original post, I didn't mean that I had a problem. The question was interesting and it was the first time someone has asked me that. I just thought it was a good topic for discussion. And like I had predicted, it is indeed! I'm loving all of the responses on what all of you have to say. Keep them coming!
RDChopper,
There are plenty of other parameters we can go by and I don't have time to debate by the book with you although there are plenty of other sources we can look to, ultimately, it's all relative and you know that just as well as I do. The posts in this thread have nothing to do with proving or disproving the merits of what is or is not art so I will not count that. A music artist can create a song and publish it and someone like you can interpret it as "showing off" so I'm not sure what your point is. In addition, I'm sure I can find a few music artists who created for the sake of monetary gain at that point in their life but I'm sure as hell not dismissing music as an art form because of a few individuals. There are many underground cartists out there that I have the highest respect for who do not care to be in the spotlight and do this because they love it.
Your argument that Cardistry in RAW form cannot portray story telling makes no sense to me, I could say the same for music. The lyrics need to be accompanied by the instruments or vice versa... or a microphone. (I think it's a silly argument, but I'm playing the devil's advocate here)
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you or anyone else to put emotion into creating something. My emotions EVOKE those creations and are a result of them and neither you nor the rest of the world has to be present for it. However, if by your definition art has to be PERFORMED then one can certainly add emotion into performing the sybil by changing pace and/or the emotion of one's face. If done right and the story makes sense, the audience too should be able to interpret accordingly. If you cannot see the potential in any of this then you are ignorant and my time is better spent elsewhere.
Many of your points disproving Cardistry as art make absolutely no sense whatsoever. "Sometimes there is poetry that I don't understand, but it is a fact, that the author is trying to tell me something." Your credibility just sank with that statement. You apparently do not understand Cardistry either, if you did, you would know Cardistry holds this same potential. If you are going to argue for the sake of arguing, don't bother with me.
PS: By dissecting my post sentence by sentence, you seem to have missed the point about emotions many of us go through when creating (which by your definition makes art).
There are plenty of other parameters we can go by and I don't have time to debate by the book with you although there are plenty of other sources we can look to, ultimately, it's all relative and you know that just as well as I do. The posts in this thread have nothing to do with proving or disproving the merits of what is or is not art so I will not count that. A music artist can create a song and publish it and someone like you can interpret it as "showing off" so I'm not sure what your point is. In addition, I'm sure I can find a few music artists who created for the sake of monetary gain at that point in their life but I'm sure as hell not dismissing music as an art form because of a few individuals. There are many underground cartists out there that I have the highest respect for who do not care to be in the spotlight and do this because they love it.
Your argument that Cardistry in RAW form cannot portray story telling makes no sense to me, I could say the same for music. The lyrics need to be accompanied by the instruments or vice versa... or a microphone. (I think it's a silly argument, but I'm playing the devil's advocate here)
I don't have to demonstrate anything to you or anyone else to put emotion into creating something. My emotions EVOKE those creations and are a result of them and neither you nor the rest of the world has to be present for it. However, if by your definition art has to be PERFORMED then one can certainly add emotion into performing the sybil by changing pace and/or the emotion of one's face. If done right and the story makes sense, the audience too should be able to interpret accordingly. If you cannot see the potential in any of this then you are ignorant and my time is better spent elsewhere.
Many of your points disproving Cardistry as art make absolutely no sense whatsoever. "Sometimes there is poetry that I don't understand, but it is a fact, that the author is trying to tell me something." Your credibility just sank with that statement. You apparently do not understand Cardistry either, if you did, you would know Cardistry holds this same potential. If you are going to argue for the sake of arguing, don't bother with me.
PS: By dissecting my post sentence by sentence, you seem to have missed the point about emotions many of us go through when creating (which by your definition makes art).
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I dont mean to be rude, but I expected better. I thought I made my points clear and I was looking forward into a more insightful and well based debate . Let me rinse and repeat.
Nope, talking about "art" theory is not relative. Is like saying that mathematics are relative to each person.
Sigh... the song itself is art, If I am singing "georgia on my mind" the emphasis is not in me (Althought there are people that make it look so) the emphasis is in the song, what it represents, what it transmites, not in the performer.
Well that's great!, Im sure there are, but I don't see how this is helpiing to prove your point further. they are simply hobbysts. that's it.
We aren't talking about what is "art" we are talking about why "cardistry" is not art, and those posts proved my point that 87.46% of the cardistry communtiy do cardistry because they like it. egoistical reasons. Not art. and for the rest? they still aren't doing art, I explained that further in other posts. They might have some qualities, but as I said, you can't just call something beatifull art. You can just call someone that does cardistry for himself Artist.
WTF!? Yes you are playing devil advocate here. What about classical music? bethoven!? Chopan? Rachmaninoff!? Claude de bussy!?. No offense, but yes it was a silly argument. Therefore we can agree that juggling cards witouth music or theatrics is still juggling cards.
Either I didn't express myself well in english or you didn't read my post right. I don't doubt that you put emotions into creating something, the thing is that the "something" you created, doesn't exprese anything AT ALL. And yes "art" has to be shared, performed whatever you want to call it.
You talk about a story being started and making sense? How do you start it at all? doing a charlier, then a molecule and ending with the grand finale of a Jackson 5? to people they are just DEMONSTRATIONS OR SKILL, your objective may be to share a story, but for them you are just again, juggling cards.
Jesus, this really baffles me. Do you have proof? these are just claims you are making, I told you before, If I ever get to see something like you say, I will the first one to talk good about it. But alas, so far nobody has demonstrated the contrary, nobody has showed me a video of this so called "potential". Yes, I see great potential on this form of juggling to grow up into very amasing things, but really difficult to see it evolve into art.
I can back up my points with books, people, facts, videos, whatever you fancy.
Please if you are going to state your point of view, at least have some way to back it all up.
I don't mean to be offensive but I really expected better from this discussion. But as always you being the Artist (because I said it before, you are indeed the artist). I don't see my words carrying more weight than your words to make people change their views of cardistry.
. Let me rinse and repeat.Nope, talking about "art" theory is not relative. Is like saying that mathematics are relative to each person.
Sigh... the song itself is art, If I am singing "georgia on my mind" the emphasis is not in me (Althought there are people that make it look so) the emphasis is in the song, what it represents, what it transmites, not in the performer.
Well that's great!, Im sure there are, but I don't see how this is helpiing to prove your point further. they are simply hobbysts. that's it.
We aren't talking about what is "art" we are talking about why "cardistry" is not art, and those posts proved my point that 87.46% of the cardistry communtiy do cardistry because they like it. egoistical reasons. Not art. and for the rest? they still aren't doing art, I explained that further in other posts. They might have some qualities, but as I said, you can't just call something beatifull art. You can just call someone that does cardistry for himself Artist.
WTF!? Yes you are playing devil advocate here. What about classical music? bethoven!? Chopan? Rachmaninoff!? Claude de bussy!?. No offense, but yes it was a silly argument. Therefore we can agree that juggling cards witouth music or theatrics is still juggling cards.
Either I didn't express myself well in english or you didn't read my post right. I don't doubt that you put emotions into creating something, the thing is that the "something" you created, doesn't exprese anything AT ALL. And yes "art" has to be shared, performed whatever you want to call it.
You talk about a story being started and making sense? How do you start it at all? doing a charlier, then a molecule and ending with the grand finale of a Jackson 5? to people they are just DEMONSTRATIONS OR SKILL, your objective may be to share a story, but for them you are just again, juggling cards.
Jesus, this really baffles me. Do you have proof? these are just claims you are making, I told you before, If I ever get to see something like you say, I will the first one to talk good about it. But alas, so far nobody has demonstrated the contrary, nobody has showed me a video of this so called "potential". Yes, I see great potential on this form of juggling to grow up into very amasing things, but really difficult to see it evolve into art.
I can back up my points with books, people, facts, videos, whatever you fancy.
Please if you are going to state your point of view, at least have some way to back it all up.
I don't mean to be offensive but I really expected better from this discussion. But as always you being the Artist (because I said it before, you are indeed the artist). I don't see my words carrying more weight than your words to make people change their views of cardistry.
Mmm.. i didn't made my point clear with that example.
Im not arguing just for arguing man. But okay, Im going to put your theory into a test.
Im going to get a camera, some music, build up a cardistry performance of about 10 mins, and go out and ask people to stay and see it.
After it I will ask them what did they think of the whole thing
Then Im going to take again the camera, a complicated piece of poetry, and read it to strangers. And I will ask them what they thought about it.
If even one person says anything about the "message" I tried to portray, or something related to that. I will rest my case and give you credit.
Otherwise, my point stands.
P.S Sorry if I have sounded offensive in my other posts, I really get carried away in debates (since i enjoy them a lot) and sometimes I am a little harsh in my posts. All for the better, I have enjoyed the discussion so far.
Another post that sank your credibility. You have the audacity to assume you have the potential to "test my theory" by making a half ass video that will pass judgement on my life's work? I rest my case.
I think my time is better spent creating rather than arguing with someone who self proclaimed himself "Official member of The Veteran Cynical Prick Society Of Theory11."
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Whoa there. I understand that the debate has gotten pretty into your life's work and ideas, but is it really right to completely dismiss all of his points? I don't mean that you should keep arguing. I merely mean that we should all have our opinions. Maybe it is not my place to say anything and I am going to get flamed for this but oh well. I expressed my point.
Basically, I think that what defines art is merely personal and you can't really change that. I might not think that the Mona Lisa is a piece of art but that doesn't make me an idiot.
Hopefully I wasn't rude.
The Andrei-RDChopper debates are more entertaining and a lot easier to read and understand than the Bohr-Einstein debates. Shame - it's one of the best I've read on this board.
At any rate, I think art is art when one looks at it and is able to perceive it as such. In that sense, most of what we see is art - we just don't always judge it as such. I actually have a theory that most people who got into magic/cardistry, despite seeing CRAPPY magic/cardistry, where able to recognize it as an art. It's also why some of those 12 year old magicians evolve from the "crappy webcam" youtube videos to start joining discussion boards and being the brand new block everyone loves to see. Unless, of course, you're one of those classic "Copperfield came to my town and I shook his hand!" magicians.
As far as what RDChopper and Andrei are saying, now... I think cardistry CAN be art. But I see very few people that make me feel that as such. The only people that have ever made me feel it's an art are Alejandro Portela, Andrei Jikh, and Chris Hestnes. Them, and a few youtubers like Michael Herp and Jon Ramirez. Other than that, however, I have to agree with RDChopper on the majority of his points (I'd elaborate on which ones, but I'm tired - perhaps tomorrow).
At any rate, I think art is art when one looks at it and is able to perceive it as such. In that sense, most of what we see is art - we just don't always judge it as such. I actually have a theory that most people who got into magic/cardistry, despite seeing CRAPPY magic/cardistry, where able to recognize it as an art. It's also why some of those 12 year old magicians evolve from the "crappy webcam" youtube videos to start joining discussion boards and being the brand new block everyone loves to see. Unless, of course, you're one of those classic "Copperfield came to my town and I shook his hand!" magicians.
As far as what RDChopper and Andrei are saying, now... I think cardistry CAN be art. But I see very few people that make me feel that as such. The only people that have ever made me feel it's an art are Alejandro Portela, Andrei Jikh, and Chris Hestnes. Them, and a few youtubers like Michael Herp and Jon Ramirez. Other than that, however, I have to agree with RDChopper on the majority of his points (I'd elaborate on which ones, but I'm tired - perhaps tomorrow).
Wowza, I think I just understood why people randomly make weird things out of random objects for what seems like no apparent reason at all (I mean abstract art). Also I guess what I think I'm getting out of this thread is that cardistry isn't an art and likely never will be. You can express emotions through it, but only to yourself. It's not really something that spreads a message. It'd be like me saying that bouncing a golf ball on my golf club can transmit a message. Sure it looks cool, but realistically, "Does it really transmit a message?". The answer is no. No matter how much I want to convince myself otherwise. However, I do have to say that cardistry is pretty dang beautiful and amazing. I guess what I've come to is that Art isn't necessarily beautiful creation, it's something much more intricate and meaningful than that. Cardistry is beautiful creation. To be honest I thought I'd side with Andrei at first, but after throughly thinking everything through I think I have to disagree. However, that's just my opinion and you probably shouldn't listen to me most of the time, . I guess art is just in the eye of the beholder though...
. I guess art is just in the eye of the beholder though...
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Thanks man, you mainly summarise my whole point. So far I haven't seen Cardistry as Art, but I believe it can become art later on.
Shame. We started with insults, this whole thing was going really well.
Okay, I'll stop "debating". Some people have started posting their opinions and the thread is looking great, I look forward to see this thread still open
.Shame. We started with insults, this whole thing was going really well.
Okay, I'll stop "debating". Some people have started posting their opinions and the thread is looking great, I look forward to see this thread still open
It was somewhat of a low blow, I'll agree. But you two can't deny that there's been a misunderstanding in semantics throughout this thread.
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Mosdef, actually I think that was why the thread got out trail really quickly. Althought I'll admit that I was also offensive in some of my posts.
Yea I agree, this was probably pretty harsh to both of rcdchopper and andrei, but it was really interesting to me and other users I'm sure. I think only time will tell who won the debate though,
.Yea I agree, this was probably pretty harsh to both of rcdchopper and andrei, but it was really interesting to me and other users I'm sure. I think only time will tell who won the debate though,
Guess so. By far one of the most interesting threads in the General Discussion area for a while, in my opinion.
I'm thinking that maybe this point should be made too. Out of the majority of people in the world, who really gives a crap if you call yourself an artist? If they like the things you do, then they like the things you do. If not who cares? I think the hardest thing for me to grasp throughout this whole thread was that art is meant to transmit a message. Do I really transmit a message when I play with cards? Is it really my sole purpose when I'm playing with cards? Nope! It isn't, it's just entertaining for me and everyone else who does it. That's okay too, cause it's alright to be an interpreter and not an artist. Who really cares what your motives are. They just watch cause it's entertaining.
I love it.. it CAN be art but it isn't.
I respect all of your opinions, although I certainly tried my best to explain my perspective and why I so strongly disagree. Nevertheless, I think we all share an appreciation for Cardistry and at the end of the day, that's what matters most.
I respect all of your opinions, although I certainly tried my best to explain my perspective and why I so strongly disagree. Nevertheless, I think we all share an appreciation for Cardistry and at the end of the day, that's what matters most.
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