David Blaine?

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Jan 11, 2013
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Dubai
I agree with what you are saying Steerpike. I'm my opinion and you may disagree with me, but I think in terms of methods, mentalism is easier than learning say card or coin sleights. The challenge comes with the presentation and really selling the effect to the audience so the notion that its just a trick never enters the mind of the audience.
 
Apr 17, 2013
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I agree with what you are saying Steerpike. I'm my opinion and you may disagree with me, but I think in terms of methods, mentalism is easier than learning say card or coin sleights. The challenge comes with the presentation and really selling the effect to the audience so the notion that its just a trick never enters the mind of the audience.


It took me longer to learn cold reading then it did card and coin slights. Mentalism is a whole different animal. When a magician starts learning mentalism, they kinda have to forget the magic they know to learn how to really work in the medium of mentalism.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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I'm my opinion and you may disagree with me, but I think in terms of methods, mentalism is easier than learning say card or coin sleights.

A billet switch is no more or less difficult than a false transfer of a coin. A handful of basic card sleights can be retooled to use business cards. The mechanics of mentalism are more minimalist than magic, there are fewer of the knuclebusters. The fundamental mechanics are really very similar, and that's what leads a lot of people to believe the two genres are essentially the same thing.

The difference becomes clear in the performance theory. Harlan Tarbell's essays on the subject make that quite clear. I can always tell a wannabe mentalist who has never read Tarbell. In fact, those essays are kind of a sore spot for a lot of moralists.

As long as I'm here, I might as well address a couple other posts I skimmed past before.

i started on youtube then i started buying dvds like trilogy dnd surfaced chad nelson mystique d+m tricks volume and volume 6 daniel garcia + some dan and dave on demands like twizinser by helder guimareas and some more

This is the equivalent of attempting to cook dinner when the only things available are pickles, beer, dried parsley and beer. This is why I've told you more than once to get books. Books in Arabic can be hard to track down, though I do know that Mark Wilson's Complete Course is available in French. And like I said, getting them in English will help you perfect your English anyway.

Given that, would you perhaps agree that a performer could present a simple card force or, indeed, Out of this World in a way which would still fall withing the parameters of mentalism?

Derren Brown did a variation on Out of this World that straddles the line between mental magic and mentalism, though I'm inclined to say it was closer to mentalism. Instead of playing cards, he gave a mortician a collection of photographs of people and asked him to sort them into piles of living and dead based purely on intuition. When the two piles were completed, Derren turned them over to show the word "living" or "dead" written on the back of each one, and indeed they were all sorted into the correct stack.

It takes the mechanics of the card trick, but the setting and end goal and subtly shifted to imply that there is an almost preternatural mental phenomenon at work. I've been experimenting with similar ideas with my business cards, though I haven't yet settled on anything I like that I'd be comfortable showing to an audience.

so spell by shin lim is just a card trick and not a mentalism how ?
i think that it is all about the presentation when david blaine asks stephen hawking to think of a card and it is in bottom of the deck if he snaps his fingers and say your card will be now in bottom so this is magic but if he says i predicted that and i did it from begining this is mentalism right ?

It's a bit more involved than that. Saying, "I predicted that," is mental magic, not mentalism. It's still a bare-bones suspension of disbelief presentation.

Consider a drawing duplication. A magician gives a slight dramatic pause, duplicates the drawing perfectly, applause. Good fun in its own right. But a mentalist would sit there maybe with his back turned or blindfolded or something. The drawing process is slow, uncertain. Perhaps he's framed it as telepathy. Perhaps he's framed it as remote viewing. Either way when the drawing is finished, it's damn close but not perfect.

A mentalist must pick one primary ability (in my case I've chosen telepathy) and a secondary one that he uses much less often (I chose clairvoyance). He then sticks with it. You don't ask a mind reader to bend spoons for the same reason you don't ask Iron Maiden to do stand-up comedy or juggle, amusing as that mental image might be.

Furthermore, the mentalist is not perfect. They have about an 80% success ratio. If I'm trying to read someone's mind to get the serial number on a bill, I get about two numbers incorrect first before correcting myself. "Six... two... seven? No... no...... one..." This makes the act look more real. There are a lot psychological and cultural factors that go into explaining this. For example, why do we assume that all predictions are vague, not wholly accurate, or can only be understood after they've already come to pass? Millennia of conditioning due to the fact that real-world prophets were all either insane, drunk, stoned, or otherwise chasing dragons while hopped up on who-knows-what. The Oracle of Delphi, to name one, was believed by scholars to have been breathing poisonous cave fumes that induced hallucinations. And at the risk of offending a few people, some theologians theorize that John of Patmos wrote the Book of Revelations influenced by hallucinations caused by ingesting fly amanita mushrooms (yes Skyrim fans, those are a real thing), which were native to the island of Patmos in that time. A lot of ancient prophets were really just a prototype for Timothy Leary.

I digress. The point is that the performance theory separates magic and mentalism. And the divide may seem minor, but it's actually a pretty severe one. Admittedly some mentalists do use mental magic to make their shows more commercial and reign in bigger clients. Richard Osterlind for example. But figuring out how to do it properly takes a fair amount of intuition that can only be gained through performance experience.
 
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Dec 18, 2007
1,610
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Northampton, MA - USA
I agree with what you are saying Steerpike. I'm my opinion and you may disagree with me, but I think in terms of methods, mentalism is easier than learning say card or coin sleights. The challenge comes with the presentation and really selling the effect to the audience so the notion that its just a trick never enters the mind of the audience.

I think you're confusing the simplicity of method vs. the other other but Mentalism is not easier than the other if you are "doing it right" and yes, much of what I'm referring to is the issue of showmanship skill but there is an onus to the Mentalist to make things far more natural when handling moves, items, etc. (the dirty work) than any magician needs to deal with. . . let's face it, 90% of us suck when it comes to palming... especially a Classic Palm or Back Palm.

Mentalism isn't about "tricking the mind" of anyone, it's about invoking belief; understanding the difference is the biggie and before people get up-set. . . invoking belief has NOTHING to do with taking a Psychic approach at things, even Derren Brown invokes belief in people as does David Blaine. Not so much with the 40 year old wannabe of Luxor infamy, but then David Copperfield don't solicit belief either, it's a different form of magic in which the suspension of disbelief is the course of agreement.


Steerpike. . . I'm so proud of you!
 
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Dean Magic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Ellusionist just released a book all about reading minds and stuff like that. I don't know if its any good but you should look into it
 
Sep 1, 2007
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btw what is your favourite effect from db real or magic ?

I don't have a favorite effect per se. I've always been less interested in the mechanics than the processes and systems. I will say that the original Street Magic special has a place in my heart simply because it broke through the barriers magic was stuck in at that time and proved to a wider audience that magic wasn't just for kids or drunken Vegas tourists. I suppose in continental Europe that was less of an issue since they're much friendlier to buskers than the US, but here in the US it really gave things a much needed shake-up. I have the problem of being a giant hippie radical in a culture that desperately wants to believe it's still 1950, but that's another story.

Steerpike. . . I'm so proud of you!

Hey, I learn from the best.

Ellusionist just released a book all about reading minds and stuff like that. I don't know if its any good but you should look into it

If you're referring to Dee Christopher's Deep Shadows, I have not read it yet, but the copy makes me hesitant to recommend it to someone just starting out in mentalism. I'm a big supporter of getting your fundamentals from Mark Wilson's, expanding your knowledge of mental magic through Karl Fulves' Self-Working Mental Magic, and then moving on to Bob Cassidy's Fundamentals and Craig's ebooks. From there you'll want the major tent poles like Corinda, Anneman, Maven, et al and after that it depends on what you want to specialize in.
 
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Apr 17, 2013
885
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If you're referring to Dee Christopher's Deep Shadows, I have not read it yet, but the copy makes me hesitant to recommend it to someone just starting out in mentalism. I'm a big supporter of getting your fundamentals from Mark Wilson's, expanding your knowledge of mental magic through Karl Fulves' Self-Working Mental Magic, and then moving on to Bob Cassidy's Fundamentals and Craig's ebooks. From there you'll want the major tent poles like Corinda, Anneman, Maven, et al and after that it depends on what you want to specialize in.

I would like to add the mentalism section from the Amateur Magician's Handbook. I know more than a few older guys who got their start from that section of the book.
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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I am reading Deep Shadows now. I am generally fond of Dee Christopher's stuff and this is no exception. While an inexperienced performer could gain quite a lot from this book, I'm sure, it will take a lot of effort. I would definitely recommend learning the basics first as Steerpike recommended.
 

Dean Magic

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2013
452
480
Florida
I was actually referring to COG by Ben Seward. But it has not been out for very long so I am not sure if the book is worth buying.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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I was actually referring to COG by Ben Seward. But it has not been out for very long so I am not sure if the book is worth buying.

Considering it's listed as "intermediate" I'm going to go ahead and say no it is not for those new to mentalism.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
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Considering it's listed as "intermediate" I'm going to go ahead and say no it is not for those new to mentalism.

I just watched the video for the book and the effect they were demoing I knew the card as well by watching the guy. Guys who know some mentalism should be able to see what he is teaching as well just from the demo.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Northampton, MA - USA
I recently made a post on E forum about Re-evaluating the Bible's of Mentalism. If you're new to the craft I'd suggest you wonder over there and find them. They will tell you what books to look for, for the most part, and why. Granted, there's much more to the thinking and probably a few key pieces I should have included but there's only so much a first and second year student can absorb (and afford).

What's important to understand is that this craft is super simple (as in minimalistic) and flows in a way that seems natural/real. The psychological dynamics are contrary to how conventional magic is presented; with Magic the audience knows they are being fooled and they set aside their disbelief for the sake of the amusement; with Mentalism they are encouraged to invest themselves and their belief whether you have someone talking about Mega Memory or someone Reading Tarot cards, invoking belief is the key to success. . . which means you have to be BELIEVABLE.

Bob Cassidy is one of my "Mentors" so to speak, a good friend whose material has taken me light years forward, but I've been blessed in having a handful of old timers around as well such as Jack Dean, Millard Longman and of course Richard Webster. When you learn from people like this you're learning the old school philosophy behind Mentalism and what it means when we say "Do it for real" in that sometimes you really are. . . you listen to your gut and you find that you have hard hits. . . it can get spooky; but ONLY when you learn to look at each effect as a tool vs. a trick.

Best of luck!
 
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