Evolutionary Idea

[James Wise Magic]

Now I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of negative posts about this but I had an idea.

Well you know how we're always trying to improve magic, well how about we break 1 of the main rules of magic. Never perform the same trick twice.


Well we don't perform an effect twice because the audience is aware of what is going on, misdirection becomes harder and you can mess up and blah blah blah.


Well, if we wanted to advance magic and better ourselves, wouldn't we want to do a trick more than once AND still pull it off as well as you did it the first time? I know I certainly would.
Now the only question is, What can we do so we could do this? Well practice would be the most logical answer. But I'm toying with a lot of things and I believe there is some technique that we could use.

I personally think that magicians of today need to stop thinking inside of the box, living in their rules that they have had for 3000 years. We need to get our hands dirty a little.
Instead of thinking of a different way of presenting a trick of "Was that your card," think more creatively.

 

[D ICE R]

I agree with what you are trying to say.

That is why everything I do should stand to repeat performances. I say should because if you are truly observant you will catch the 'move', but more often than not it will fly by the audience even a second or third time. In the Paper Engine Aaron Fisher talks about how when the sleight is 'scripted' into the performance correctly it seems than nothing has happened. I tried to take this advice and adopt it to every one of my routines.

I cannot achieve this I will use a different method (usually an easier one) to achieve the exact same result. I urge everyone to at least once watch Get Nyman and listen to him talk about the psychology behind his effects. The methods are clever but he is the true master of psychological misdirection (who do you think taught Derren).

 

[hector_cervantes]

I agree but... the only way to get almost as near to the same experience is to change the ending. for example, vanish a card and make it appear in different places... trying to make every time even more exciting...

 

[tokyoUW]

I think you are misunderstanding, or not realizing, the most important reasoning behind the idea of "do not perform a trick more than once."

The reason for the rule is not to just protect your sleights and prevent from being figured out.

Think of what you are providing to the audience. When you do a trick, you are giving them an "awe" moment. They are left with a memory, and each person must work through that one memory and break through all the mysterious barricades to try and understand what they saw.

When you give them a second look, you are destorying, or greatly weakening that first experience you gave them. Whitnessing magic is supposed be a mysterious expriencing, where you cannot grasp what is happening and can only be left to sift through various self-produced methods, yet never truly knowing what has happened. The second time they see the same trick however, it will turn into an exprience of "Trying to catch sometning new to try and figure out the trick that they previously saw."

When you show someone a trick for the first time, you catch them offguard, as they do not know what to expect, so the experience is something that cannot be recreated. Why would you want to destroy someone's experience after giving it to them.

You speak as if repeating the same trick is to better our performance ability, but in retrospect, controlling your desire to do the same trick again is actually better for you.

You can learn to perform the same trick in different ways via other methods then just showing it mulitple times to the same person.

 

[Sherlock]

I think you are misunderstanding, or not realizing, the most important reasoning behind the idea of "do not perform a trick more than once."

The reason for the rule is not to just protect your sleights and prevent from being figured out.

Think of what you are providing to the audience. When you do a trick, you are giving them an "awe" moment. They are left with a memory, and each person must work through that one memory and break through all the mysterious barricades to try and understand what they saw.

When you give them a second look, you are destorying, or greatly weakening that first experience you gave them. Whitnessing magic is supposed be a mysterious expriencing, where you cannot grasp what is happening and can only be left to sift through various self-produced methods, yet never truly knowing what has happened. The second time they see the same trick however, it will turn into an exprience of "Trying to catch sometning new to try and figure out the trick that they previously saw."

When you show someone a trick for the first time, you catch them offguard, as they do not know what to expect, so the experience is something that cannot be recreated. Why would you want to destroy someone's experience after giving it to them.

You speak as if repeating the same trick is to better our performance ability, but in retrospect, controlling your desire to do the same trick again is actually better for you.

You can learn to perform the same trick in different ways via other methods then just showing it mulitple times to the same person.

Everything you just said is exactly what I was gonna say. Great post, I actually include this idea in my book I'm writing currently.

You know the reason behind people asking you to show them that same effect again? It's not because they want to amazed again, why should they, they are going to see the same thing again.

The simple answer is they want to figure it out, and you are giving them control and opening up opportunity for disaster. Even if you don't get caught you made another mistake, you just made this into a puzzle. Magic is supposed to be about astonishing them with something new and amazing, you just ruined that.

Showing them the same again is basically telling them "haha I fooled you twice." If they ask you to do it again then it's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you relinquish them some sort of "actual" control then switch to the passenger seat please.

There is a reason for this rule being around as long as it has. It's one of those golden rules that stays for a very good reason, and it probably won't be changing ever.

If you still feel the same way then please elaborate why, because I honestly see no reason to repeat the same thing twice.

Sidenote: Actual is in quotation because sometimes we allow the spectator to shuffle etc. to show them no funny business. We never give real control to the audience, or at least none that will matter. Giving into their demands is giving them control that does matter and it does affect the magic.

 

[James Wise Magic]

Think of what you are providing to the audience. When you do a trick, you are giving them an "awe" moment. They are left with a memory, and each person must work through that one memory and break through all the mysterious barricades to try and understand what they saw.

When you give them a second look, you are destorying, or greatly weakening that first experience you gave them. Whitnessing magic is supposed be a mysterious expriencing, where you cannot grasp what is happening and can only be left to sift through various self-produced methods, yet never truly knowing what has happened. The second time they see the same trick however, it will turn into an exprience of "Trying to catch sometning new to try and figure out the trick that they previously saw."

I don't know about that completely, I've tested this theory I have several times. I usually perform Pressure and Angel Zero. Now I've done these effects twice and sometimes even more to the same people. And a lot of the times when I perform, the person that saw the same trick before still flips out, sometimes even getting a stronger reaction than I did before. So there must be something I'm doing right.

I TOTALLY understand what ya'll are saying though. To give them an "awe" moment and leave them wanting more. I get it. I just think that you can still achieve an "awe" moment even when you repeat a trick. And like I said last time, sometimes you can get an even better reaction from them.

 

[RickEverhart]

I completely agree with tokyo on this one. The first time they witness the effect it blows them away and they have to mentally try to put the pieces together while in awe. The second time they are not experiencing the effect and getting the same reaction. Most of the time during the second look they are trying to catch the sleight. Don't ruin the magical moment by doing it again and again. Eventually the magic wears off. I have never gotten a better response by repeating the effect immediately again. Now...have I repeated an effect for someone a month or so later and gotten another good reaction?...yes and no.

 

[Rmana]

I think the "rule" of never perform a trick twice is not about making yourself a better a magician as you would assume it would, but to make your performance a more interesting and entertaining one for you audience.

By performing a trick again after you did it, the purpose of presentation goes from being a form of entertainment and possibly trickery to people just wanting to see how it's done and how they were fooled.

I personally think that performance and, really, "magic" lies in the eyes of the audience, not the performer and that's why you should just keep progressing in your performance.

That's why I never understood the idea of tricks that have "Instant reset". Yea, they're usually good tricks, but I won't do them again "instantly"

 

[RickEverhart]

Rmana,

"Instant reset" is very valuable when you are doing corporate picnics, wedding gigs, anything that is table to table and you don't have even a minute as you are walking to the next table to perform. It is very difficult to do effects at these types of gigs if you have to go to a corner of the room or step out in a hall after each set. That would get old after the first 10 tables or so.

I think that is what most people mean by instant reset being beneficial. Not to perform the effect again right then and there for that same group of people.

This reminded me of the next thread / question I need to post. Thanks.

 

[chriswiehl]

like extreme burn. you do that twice.
1-20 then 20-1

 

[KeoSilver]

There are some points here and I completely disagree with them. See the original reason why the rule “Do not perform a trick more then once” for the same audience, is to prevent giving more information that people can “sift through.” With that said if your effect is super clean and can pass under the noses of your participants, then go for it. “Give them a second look”

See if your participants are asking you to perform an effect again, for the sole reason of trying to figure out a method. The answer is very simple, you FAILED, more specifically the performance failed. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Once the participant figures out that what you are doing simply can’t be done, nor explained it locks in and makes the awe moment memorable.

Is magic supposed to be a “mysterious” experience, or a fun, enjoyable, entertaining and memorable experience? Mystery should not be magic, the mystery should be solved in the beginning; you’re a magician, cardician, whatever you maybe. Your audience should come to the conclusion that you are a skilled, or a person who can do some strange things. Either way you are still entertaining them and creating an “awe “moment.

Speaking of “awe” moments, this is probably the only thing I strongly agree with. I like to be remembered; heck I am narcissist why do you think I really got into magic. If you performed something that your audience really enjoyed, do it again. Some effects are like a good joke; you hear it once think its funny. Then you go call your friend over and someone tells it again, everyone laughs, and it still hasn’t lost its value. Heck you may even be laughing harder. It’s the same principle, with performing an effect twice.

Use of extreme words applied to magic, “destroying” “weakening” of anything should be left out. If the effect is really destroyed by a second viewing, then it wasn’t very good effect to begin with. Another thing, you are not there to fool your participant, that’s just rude. My goal is to Baffle, and amaze them with impossibilities.

The idea that the second time around on the same effect dampens it is not true. Regularly bending this rule has actually made the awe moment even better. When I was in school I performed the same effect 13 times within an hour. The only thing the group of peers and teacher could come up with, is that I was able to see through the cards like x-ray vision, or in one case through weird markings, (Stigmata, Houchin/Banachek) Basically a rifle force done 13 times.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

Now I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of negative posts about this but I had an idea.

Well you know how we're always trying to improve magic, well how about we break 1 of the main rules of magic. Never perform the same trick twice.


Well we don't perform an effect twice because the audience is aware of what is going on, misdirection becomes harder and you can mess up and blah blah blah.


Well, if we wanted to advance magic and better ourselves, wouldn't we want to do a trick more than once AND still pull it off as well as you did it the first time? I know I certainly would.
Now the only question is, What can we do so we could do this? Well practice would be the most logical answer. But I'm toying with a lot of things and I believe there is some technique that we could use.

I personally think that magicians of today need to stop thinking inside of the box, living in their rules that they have had for 3000 years. We need to get our hands dirty a little.
Instead of thinking of a different way of presenting a trick of "Was that your card," think more creatively.

i see what you are saying....i think the best way to do stuff like that is by learning to do an effect with different patter and different methods...thats the only way...

because when these effects are created, they are simply created to do it in that manner and not another way.....

 

[Cedric Taylor]

There are some points here and I completely disagree with them. See the original reason why the rule “Do not perform a trick more then once” for the same audience, is to prevent giving more information that people can “sift through.” With that said if your effect is super clean and can pass under the noses of your participants, then go for it. “Give them a second look”

See if your participants are asking you to perform an effect again, for the sole reason of trying to figure out a method. The answer is very simple, you FAILED, more specifically the performance failed. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Once the participant figures out that what you are doing simply can’t be done, nor explained it locks in and makes the awe moment memorable.

Is magic supposed to be a “mysterious” experience, or a fun, enjoyable, entertaining and memorable experience? Mystery should not be magic, the mystery should be solved in the beginning; you’re a magician, cardician, whatever you maybe. Your audience should come to the conclusion that you are a skilled, or a person who can do some strange things. Either way you are still entertaining them and creating an “awe “moment.

Speaking of “awe” moments, this is probably the only thing I strongly agree with. I like to be remembered; heck I am narcissist why do you think I really got into magic. If you performed something that your audience really enjoyed, do it again. Some effects are like a good joke; you hear it once think its funny. Then you go call your friend over and someone tells it again, everyone laughs, and it still hasn’t lost its value. Heck you may even be laughing harder. It’s the same principle, with performing an effect twice.

Use of extreme words applied to magic, “destroying” “weakening” of anything should be left out. If the effect is really destroyed by a second viewing, then it wasn’t very good effect to begin with. Another thing, you are not there to fool your participant, that’s just rude. My goal is to Baffle, and amaze them with impossibilities.

The idea that the second time around on the same effect dampens it is not true. Regularly bending this rule has actually made the awe moment even better. When I was in school I performed the same effect 13 times within an hour. The only thing the group of peers and teacher could come up with, is that I was able to see through the cards like x-ray vision, or in one case through weird markings, (Stigmata, Houchin/Banachek) Basically a rifle force done 13 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKA-twS_ApM this is like the second to last time doing this effect. I kid you not kiddies I must have performed this thing close to 100 times for these people and they still don’t know how.

sonme moves are used for effects, and only those moves for those effects can work....u can do every effect differently to the point u use different moves and techniques....magic isn't that advanced...even the great dai vernon uses different card method to do some of the same feats, but he spent his whole life searching for more moves to use in his card magic, because some tricks work that way....there is only one move for that particular feat....it just is...

 

[KeoSilver]

sonme moves are used for effects, and only those moves for those effects can work....u can do every effect differently to the point u use different moves and techniques....magic isn't that advanced...even the great dai vernon uses different card method to do some of the same feats, but he spent his whole life searching for more moves to use in his card magic, because some tricks work that way....there is only one move for that particular feat....it just is...

I am not quite sure which part you are addressing, all I know is your talking to me. Nowhere did the original post that I posted say that you could not do different things to achieve the same effect. The post is talking about doing the same effect twice(when I say effect I mean trick and the series of moves that you use to achieve the desired outcome) I have done the same moves over and over again achieving the same effect, and still amaze people. The "Awe" is still there in the spectators minds, even though they are seeing and watching intently on my hands.

 

[Sherlock]

There are some points here and I completely disagree with them. See the original reason why the rule “Do not perform a trick more then once” for the same audience, is to prevent giving more information that people can “sift through.” With that said if your effect is super clean and can pass under the noses of your participants, then go for it. “Give them a second look”

See if your participants are asking you to perform an effect again, for the sole reason of trying to figure out a method. The answer is very simple, you FAILED, more specifically the performance failed. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Once the participant figures out that what you are doing simply can’t be done, nor explained it locks in and makes the awe moment memorable.

Is magic supposed to be a “mysterious” experience, or a fun, enjoyable, entertaining and memorable experience? Mystery should not be magic, the mystery should be solved in the beginning; you’re a magician, cardician, whatever you maybe. Your audience should come to the conclusion that you are a skilled, or a person who can do some strange things. Either way you are still entertaining them and creating an “awe “moment.

Speaking of “awe” moments, this is probably the only thing I strongly agree with. I like to be remembered; heck I am narcissist why do you think I really got into magic. If you performed something that your audience really enjoyed, do it again. Some effects are like a good joke; you hear it once think its funny. Then you go call your friend over and someone tells it again, everyone laughs, and it still hasn’t lost its value. Heck you may even be laughing harder. It’s the same principle, with performing an effect twice.

Use of extreme words applied to magic, “destroying” “weakening” of anything should be left out. If the effect is really destroyed by a second viewing, then it wasn’t very good effect to begin with. Another thing, you are not there to fool your participant, that’s just rude. My goal is to Baffle, and amaze them with impossibilities.

The idea that the second time around on the same effect dampens it is not true. Regularly bending this rule has actually made the awe moment even better. When I was in school I performed the same effect 13 times within an hour. The only thing the group of peers and teacher could come up with, is that I was able to see through the cards like x-ray vision, or in one case through weird markings, (Stigmata, Houchin/Banachek) Basically a rifle force done 13 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKA-twS_ApM this is like the second to last time doing this effect. I kid you not kiddies I must have performed this thing close to 100 times for these people and they still don’t know how.

Gonna run through this real quick.

How do you know the original reason behind this? There are many reasons behind it but no original one is in existence. Magic has been around to long for something like this.

What other reason would somebody want to see something again. I know I surely wouldn't unless I wanted to catch something, some hope that they can figure it out. I know because I've been there. I was a spectator longer than I've been a magician. If they can't come up with a reason it doesn't mean they won't come up with one, and laymen have many explanations. One I had was a ball that levitated between my hands, her answer was "You have some lotion on your hands and the heat from the sun makes the ball levitate." My performance wasn't one to be memorable but I was just shocked at her answer. Some people will just come up with some crazy stuff so they have some sort of answer, very similar to religion but that's a different subject.

Seeing something again that can't be explained just isn't necessary in the first place. Why would you show them again, even if it amazes them again what's the point when you could show them something new equally amazing? The mystery is throughout the routine or perhaps a better word is the unexpected.
They don't know what's coming, which allows for presentation, making it a true, a real performance. Take away this and your just showing them a trick not an effect, no substance to it just the end result everybody is expecting.

I admit to this fault of showing people the same thing many times over. Panic was such a keeper for me, it was amazing and just blew peoples minds. Later on somebody told me that somebody had figured it out and told everybody. Apparently he was off to the backside, very very horrible angle for many effects especially Panic, saw what was being used and told them. S--- happens sometimes and unfortunately the chance of something happening increases the more times the effect is done.

My closing note on this is what I previously stated, when they know what's coming then it's not a amazing effect anymore it's a trick that fools/baffles them. There's no room for presentation, what's the point when it's the same talk again and again. You can't really change it when they know what you said before, so improv is kinda out the door on this one. So you just show them a puzzle instead, not saying it won't be amazing to them or it doesn't put them in awe but it's still just a puzzle just a trick.

Good discussion though, I probably won't be changing anybody's mind but makes for good points and understanding other's views.

 

[KeoSilver]

“How do you know the original reason behind this? There are many reasons behind it but no original one is in existence. Magic has been around to long for something like this.”

That’s the point no one really knows, which is why I can take a stand and say its okay to show the same effect twice. It will not ruin a darn thing if you do it correctly.

“What other reason would somebody want to see something again? I know I surely wouldn't unless I wanted to catch something, some hope that they can figure it out. I know because I've been there. I was a spectator longer than I've been a magician. If they can't come up with a reason it doesn't mean they won't come up with one, and laymen have many explanations. One I had was a ball that levitated between my hands, her answer was "You have some lotion on your hands and the heat from the sun makes the ball levitate." My performance wasn't one to be memorable but I was just shocked at her answer. Some people will just come up with some crazy stuff so they have some sort of answer, very similar to religion but that's a different subject.”

I remember reading something on these forums regarding something similar to this. I think it is a morgician’s thread I am not sure though. See using your levitating ball as an example, is not an effect I would perform twice. Its not a good enough joke that should be shared with others.

“Seeing something again that can't be explained just isn't necessary in the first place.
Why would you show them again, even if it amazes them again what's the point when you could show them something new equally amazing? The mystery is throughout the routine or perhaps a better word is the unexpected.
They don't know what's coming, which allows for presentation, making it a true, a real performance. Take away this and your just showing them a trick not an effect, no substance to it just the end result everybody is expecting.”

Isn’t that what an ambitious card routine is? I mean the simplest ambitious routine using a triple and a double lift. A card is brought back up to the top under impossible conditions, sometimes twice or three times. This routine dares the spectators to watch closer. As they watch and try to figure it out, the magi does little subtleties that make the method invisible.


Why can’t I do the same effect over and over again using different presentational subtleties to accomplish in essence the same effect, using the same moves? See its not a bad thing when a trick is made into a puzzle. Only if the performer shows the participants that this puzzle is impossible to solve.


As an aside I am in no way saying I am right and you are wrong, this is just my way of thinking.

 

[Sherlock]

“How do you know the original reason behind this? There are many reasons behind it but no original one is in existence. Magic has been around to long for something like this.”

That’s the point no one really knows, which is why I can take a stand and say its okay to show the same effect twice. It will not ruin a darn thing if you do it correctly.

“What other reason would somebody want to see something again? I know I surely wouldn't unless I wanted to catch something, some hope that they can figure it out. I know because I've been there. I was a spectator longer than I've been a magician. If they can't come up with a reason it doesn't mean they won't come up with one, and laymen have many explanations. One I had was a ball that levitated between my hands, her answer was "You have some lotion on your hands and the heat from the sun makes the ball levitate." My performance wasn't one to be memorable but I was just shocked at her answer. Some people will just come up with some crazy stuff so they have some sort of answer, very similar to religion but that's a different subject.”

I remember reading something on these forums regarding something similar to this. I think it is a morgician’s thread I am not sure though. See using your levitating ball as an example, is not an effect I would perform twice. Its not a good enough joke that should be shared with others.

“Seeing something again that can't be explained just isn't necessary in the first place.
Why would you show them again, even if it amazes them again what's the point when you could show them something new equally amazing? The mystery is throughout the routine or perhaps a better word is the unexpected.
They don't know what's coming, which allows for presentation, making it a true, a real performance. Take away this and your just showing them a trick not an effect, no substance to it just the end result everybody is expecting.”

Isn’t that what an ambitious card routine is? I mean the simplest ambitious routine using a triple and a double lift. A card is brought back up to the top under impossible conditions, sometimes twice or three times. This routine dares the spectators to watch closer. As they watch and try to figure it out, the magi does little subtleties that make the method invisible.


Why can’t I do the same effect over and over again using different presentational subtleties to accomplish in essence the same effect, using the same moves? See its not a bad thing when a trick is made into a puzzle. Only if the performer shows the participants that this puzzle is impossible to solve.


As an aside I am in no way saying I am right and you are wrong, this is just my way of thinking.

The thing about the ACR is that although it is the same effect it's the rare exception. It's called ambitious card routine for a good reason because the routine is the card jumping up in different impossible ways.

The reason why you can't do the same effect with the same move with different presentations is because it looks like a trick and not an astonishing effect. You present something different but using the exact same method and same effect looks just kind of stupid to be honest. Although it sort of depends on the opposites of the presentation I guess.

I had a magician present the same effect twice for me as a laymen, maybe but two or three times. Since I see this as a magician now, it just seems silly to present the same exact thing but two different presentations. It could be different through a spectators eyes, but I don't see it being that way.

Not trying to sound rude or anything.

 

[KeoSilver]

Not trying to sound rude or anything.

You're not, no worries. ^=^

I agree for the most part, I do have a problem with this:

"The reason why you can't do the same effect with the same move with different presentations is because it looks like a trick and not an astonishing effect. You present something different but using the exact same method and same effect looks just kind of stupid to be honest."

But its only an opinion. The thing I do not understand is, what separates a baffling effect, from just a trick? Where is the line? I know from personal experience the line isn't whether or not an effect is repeated.


The way I see it, if you feel your magical effect can not withstand a repeat performance by request. It probably isn't a great trick to perform. When a comedian does a new joke and it flops, it gets cut out. If they tell a joke and its funny over and over again, it stays in there act; the same should go for magicians.

 

[Sherlock]

The line between the two isn't necessarily just the end result. It's how you the magician present it, and presenting it several times gives off the taste of a trick. It may be amazing but still just a trick if you show it again and again.

If Copperfield said he was going to vanish the statue of liberty again then there would be several people out to catch him. Even though it's been exposed to a select audience, majority of people are still in the dark about it.

You don't do something that's already amazing the first time, you do it once and maybe again several months or weeks at the least. There isn't any good enough reason to show something amazing again, not the same thing at least.

Most of what I do or know how to do is good for one performance during that day. Not because I would get caught but because someone's curiosity could lead onto something. I prefer mentalism so there's no reason to perform the same thing, since many of my effects are roughly similar in nature but the methodology are usually quite different.

Some great effects you really can't perform several times not even twice in the same day at least. Two card monte for one, lots of people like to catch a glimpse and it gets difficult to manage the audience when you have a deck in the hand trying to do the moves.

 

[James Wise Magic]

You're not, no worries. ^=^

I agree for the most part, I do have a problem with this:

"The reason why you can't do the same effect with the same move with different presentations is because it looks like a trick and not an astonishing effect. You present something different but using the exact same method and same effect looks just kind of stupid to be honest."

But its only an opinion. The thing I do not understand is, what separates a baffling effect, from just a trick? Where is the line? I know from personal experience the line isn't whether or not an effect is repeated.


The way I see it, if you feel your magical effect can not withstand a repeat performance by request. It probably isn't a great trick to perform. When a comedian does a new joke and it flops, it gets cut out. If they tell a joke and its funny over and over again, it stays in there act; the same should go for magicians.

I like you man! We're on the same page!



Here's an example, I perform effects to people everyday of my life. I have performed effects such as stigmata, prophet, card through window, pressure, etc over and over and have STILL gotten HUGE reactions! So I must be doing something right.
Think of it this way, IF the reason for a layman to ask to see the trick again is so he/she can spot out the method........well what happens when the DON'T figure it out and see the method the second time..... a lot of the time they see a trick and have a theory of how something is done and when they see it the next time and see that their method was wrong, they are baffled by it and freak out and you still have that "awe" feeling, sometimes even better than the first.