How do you measure an artist?

[Lord Magic]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time...
How do you measure an artist?
Just by his/her expertise in the art or the kind of person he/she is in general matters too?
The answer is not as simple as it appears. Atleast, not for me.
The hype Jibrizy caused for example...am sure he is a GREAT close-up magician. But his faked reactions highlight his feelings of insecurity and his words don't speak too well of his character. So he is not a great person (as it seems to me as a third-person).
Should we call him a great magician? Because his magic is really amazing...but what about the other factors?
Another thing which really bothered me.
The accusations on David Blaine.
Now this one hits harder. Because he is an inspiration to like, 95% of magicians today. Although I have never been inspired by him (it was Dynamo, who in turn was inspired by Blaine) I understand how those who REALLY look up to Blaine must have felt.
Of course there is no proof. They can be baseless accusations. I sure hope they are.
But let's say...JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE I ADMIRE BLAINE'S WORK AS MUCH AS ANY OF HIS HARDCORE FANS DO (capslock was necessary), let's say for a moment that the accusations ARE true. How would you rate him? Will he still remain a great magician, having flunked the character department?
These thoughts have been bothering me for a while. Because I don't know what to think, it just makes me feel weird to look at Blaine's amazing work now-a-days, regardless of the truth behind the accusations.
And I used to respect him so much.
And moreover, the accusations have silenced down, which murks the whole thing up, because Blaine was not CONCRETELY proved innocent or guilty. And I have a bad feeling that this case will never clear up.
And I also seem to gather the worse about Blaine from this fact.

Should we still respect him as a magician? Doubtless he is a great performer. But does being a great magician and performer not take into account your real-life character? Are you a great magician (or singer or dancer) if you are amazing on-stage but are a crap of a human being off-stage?
Does being an artist include those aspects? Or does being good in your arts suffice? Because we should be judging an artist only by his/her performance, not real life character.(?)
It really provokes one's thought and has put me in a dilemma about the whole aspect of being a good magician.
Should being a good person count in being a good performer?

PS:- I absolutely do not want to discredit Blaine in anyway here Since he is not proven guilty till now, I am trying not to assume anything myself and definitely not trying to turn people against or for him in anyway. This is meant to be a completely unbiased thread. Blaine has given a new life to magic and it is because of him that magic has seen a revolution to make it great. But if the accusations are true, it really doesn't matter what he has done.

 

[Timewise64]

Art is by definition, 'Subjective'! It is all in the eye of the beholder...

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Yes, it is subjective. Each person has their own criteria of judgment.

Personally I am able to hold separate views of how someone is as a person and how they are as a performer/artist. You kind of have to if you want to do this seriously. The term "herding cats" has been applied to dealing with artistic types by a lot of people.

 

[Fox13]

Whatever Blaine has done or not, you cannot deny what he did as a performer, how it changed the way we see magic and how it inspired many in this art.

There is a documentary on Vernon that mentions he was not a great father for his son, he was practically never at home. He spent most on his time on magic, and sleights and finding that guy that supposedly has that exceptional secret move he did not tell anyone about... The way he lived his life family-wise is not considered a social example to follow, yet he is still inspires most of us to this day regarding to his work on the art.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Back when I was a teenager I read Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game, and then the subsequent saga. It was a book/story that really resonated with me, and I really enjoy that story to this day.

However, I later found out that Card himself has beliefs and supports organizations that are in direct opposition to my own beliefs.

I can say that Ender's Game is a good story, and that the man who wrote is, in my opinion, not a good person. The creation is separate from the creator.

 

[Lord Magic]

I like how Christopher said that the creation is separate fromthe creator. That seems to resolve half the problem!
But the thing is...
Can we really ignore a person's real-life characteristics when evaluating them as a performer? Going back to the theory that a bad person can never be a bad performer?
I have absolutely nil views on this. So just wanna know what you guys think about that.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I think it's just how much they love to do it.

Because in reality, you can't.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

The quality of the creation is determined by the skill with which it is created. That skill is not directly related to the person's qualities.

The decision whether or not to support a person's creation is entirely up to each individual. That decision can (and should) be influenced by the creator's personality traits, but those traits have nothing to do with what they have created.

 

[Josh Burch]

The person that comes to mind for me is Bill Cosby. I grew up in a generation where he was completely idolized. I think his comedy is still good, but there is something in my head that makes it hard to listen to.

I think I have a different gut response to opinions then I do actions. I am able to separate political opinions from art fairly easily. I might completely disagree with the morals of politically active celebrities like Orson Scott Card, Whoopie Goldberg, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Madonna, Rosie O'Donnell or Glenn Beck, but I find it fairly easy to watch or experience art that they create that does not have a political message.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

How we "measure" an artist is entirely up to us and also depends on one's definition of art. I think there are and have been many people in the arts throughout history (musicians, painters, poets, sculpturers, dancers, magicians, etc.) who have not been very kind people or very ethical or moral people. Yet, they are perceived by the majority as being great artists. But then, the majority may not be aware of what kind of person they truly were/are. If we learn of someone's character deficiencies or immoral deeds, it will certainly influence our opinion of them as a person, and possibly as an artist. As Fox13 noted, Vernon is widely acknowledged to be one of the greats in magic, who has inspired many, but knowing that he neglected his family and possibly even screwed up his kids by essentially ignoring them in favor of magic or seeking to discover and learn the next secret gambler's move, does taint my opinion of him and diminishes his stature in my eyes. As such, I am less likely to draw my inspiration from him or seek out his teachings. But as Timewise and ChristopherT pointed out, it is a subjective thing.

 

[kennethcmerrill]

Dude, I am SO bummed to hear about the accusations against David. He's honestly someone I've really looked up to just because of his no-quitting attitude. It's such a tricky issue separating artists from their art. Especially when they're performers.

 

[Fox13]

[...] but knowing [how he was] does taint my opinion of him and diminishes his stature in my eyes. As such, I am less likely to draw my inspiration from him or seek out his teachings.

This is a very humane reaction, if we consider the man as a whole. But the man dedicated his life to his art and he pushed it so far that we would be wrong to not use this knowledge.

Like in our every endeavour, the secret to getting very good, is to put in a lot of study and practice. The more we do it, the better we become. It's just that some people dedicate their entire being to it, and neglect other aspects of their life. A part of me thinks that if they did have a more balanced life, their might never become known as they are because they just would not have accomplished what they are known for.

Whether we choose to live a balanced life or not, is a matter of personal values. For some it is acceptable, for others it is not.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Just to clarify something, because I don't want to accidentally offend anyone and it has been pointed out to me in a PM. I do not object to Card's being a Mormon, it's his association with anti-LGBTQ organizations that I object to.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

Until this thread, I had been unaware of the allegations against David Blane by a model in Britain. I think it is important to note that whether these allegations are in fact true or false, they are, at this point, allegations, and an individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. What I find puzzling is why the accuser would wait 13 years to go to the police, as from what I've read, the alleged incident occurred in 2004. Although, on the other hand it is difficult to conceive why anyone would make up a story like that. But at this point, we just don't know all the facts. If he turns out to be guilty, then obviously, like anyone else, he should pay the price and be brought to justice, but if he's innocent, then this is terrible because his name and reputation have already been damaged - maybe irrevocably.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

There's a lot of reasons why victims don't come forward immediately, but that's a discussion for another forum. I will also note a second allegation occurred from a woman in NYC.

 

[Timewise64]

Dude, I am SO bummed to hear about the accusations against David. He's honestly someone I've really looked up to just because of his no-quitting attitude. It's such a tricky issue separating artists from their art. Especially when they're performers.

I for one am tired of seeing that an accusation against someone, can destroy a persons career! I, like most, hate sexual predators in any form, but just because someone comes forward and accuses someone of some terrible act, should not be grounds for the media and individuals to ruin a person! The assumption of innocents is critical to this countries foundation and we are giving up that right, piece by piece, as accusations about sexual misconduct, accusation of police racism, etc. etc.

 

[kennethcmerrill]

I for one am tired of seeing that an accusation against someone, can destroy a persons career! I, like most, hate sexual predators in any form, but just because someone comes forward and accuses someone of some terrible act, should not be grounds for the media and individuals to ruin a person! The assumption of innocents is critical to this countries foundation and we are giving up that right, piece by piece, as accusations about sexual misconduct, accusation of police racism, etc. etc.

I too hate how quickly social media now allows us to destroy people's lives without any sort of fair trial. On the other hand, especially when it comes to sexual misconduct, there's often not any/enough evidence to make a case, and often victims don't feel able to speak out until years and years after the incident. So it puts us in a tough spot where there's really nothing to go on except the victim's word, but that doesn't mean they weren't victimized. It's a rotten situation. I would love to believe that the claims against David are false, but honestly we may never know. I will say that there's typically very little incentive for a woman (or man) to make sexual assault accusations if it didn't happen. Most of the time she's exposing herself to the ugly side of discourse. She would have to be crazy to be faking it.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

What I find puzzling is why the accuser would wait 13 years to go to the police

Blame often tends to shift to the victim, especially women. "Why were you there at that time? Why were you in his room?" Perhaps a person doesn't want to relive the experience, or they know the person and it can be dangerous to come forward. Lots of reasons.

 

[Lord Magic]

Until this thread, I had been unaware of the allegations against David Blane by a model in Britain. I think it is important to note that whether these allegations are in fact true or false, they are, at this point, allegations, and an individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. What I find puzzling is why the accuser would wait 13 years to go to the police, as from what I've read, the alleged incident occurred in 2004. Although, on the other hand it is difficult to conceive why anyone would make up a story like that. But at this point, we just don't know all the facts. If he turns out to be guilty, then obviously, like anyone else, he should pay the price and be brought to justice, but if he's innocent, then this is terrible because his name and reputation have already been damaged - maybe irrevocably.

That's the thing I fear...
That if Blaine's really innocent, why on Earth is he not coming out?
Why has the verdict been left in a grey area?
That's my problem. Because I like most of you, am hoping the allegations are false (or else my image of Blaine will be tarnished) but also want the woman to have justice IF the allegations are true.
The fact that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty is okay...the thing is that Blaine has not been proven guilty OR innocent. If he is at fault, he should get punishment but if he is not, then why all this quietness? This silence of the case will tarnish only Blaine's reputation, no one else's.
But obviously as a third person, I don't have the right to say or think too much about it and come to conclusions as a third person never knows all the details.

 

[Lord Magic]

I guess all in all, we simply have to move on and hope whoever is right is proven right as well.


I still hope Blaine's not guilty.
But still, a few dirty water drops don't make an entire ocean dirty!