Reverse Engineering... Another Crazy Thought

[Deleted member 2755]

But a line is crossed when you repeatedly view a video demo for the sole purpose of figuring out the methodology behind an effect - so you can add it to your own repertoire.

I will not lie when I say that I try to reverse engineer effects. (I wonder how many times I've contradicted myself in this thread. If I'm lucky, then it will be zero. Of course, chances are I'm wrong. Ha. Please don't hate me.) Even so, I don't try to reverse engineer them to put them in my repertoire (hence the bold in your quote). If I see an effect that is truly spectacular, I will watch that video OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN until my eyes bleed! Even if I manage to figure out the methods, I wouldn't perform it for the following reasons:

1. I would not had even come up with the idea for the effect without seeing the preview.

2. I wish to respect the artist.

3. Chances are, the DVD (or downlod) will have more information than JUST the method.

I won't lie, there are some things out there that I've performed without owning, but I would always buy the product at some point. (Currently there is only 1 effect still that I'm guilty of performing a few times and not owning the DVD. Raiker, you may actually know what it is. If not, it's fun trivia.)

We are magicians... We'll always try to figure something out that fools us. I'm guilty of it and chances are, so are you. (Speaking in general of course.)

I try never to perform something unless I actually have the rights to do so.

-Doug

 

[nexusmagic]

I am not even going to read the rest of the thread.

But here is a thought. Why don't all the magic creators out there keep it to themselves and starve the magic community of there knowledge. You know like the old days were you had to pry the secrets from them. I am getting tired of creators, known here mind you that are in a sense whoring out there secrets.

If like stated before you can reverse engineer a trick with sleight of hand, who is to say that you can't just create your own gosh darn trick. I think that the availability of magic is making the future generation too clone like; Sucking creativity from magicians.

I don't know, I am just hitting a rut in magic and am upset with where it is going so far.

 

[MacGyverMagic]

Reverse engineering is perfectly fine for general effects (like "how do I make a visual card sandwich?" or "how can I make this effect gimmickless? ". Most of the time this already happens anyway because people develop the same method independently.

 

[phrozunsun]

three quick things...

1. while I don't condone reverse engineering, shapeshifter is one of those things that can be found out by accident (much like it sounds like you did). Even I was doing the basic action when just messing with cards on the subway without the knacky move before buying it. (hopefully that didn't give it away, but people who know it know what I mean.)

2. seeing an effect and creating your own method for doing it isn't reverse engineering. otherwise, we'd only have one coin through bottle routine (and we know that's not the case). Creativity is a good thing.

Reverse engineering is sitting there with your finger on the pause-play button and looking for the most minor clue. THAT I have issue with. That's not good for the community.

Pay the creator, or just take the result (and only the result) and figure out your own unique way to do it. But don't steal. It's not nice.

3. Maybe it's indirectly related to the ability to really study online video fairly easily, but it seems more and more like tricks today aren't being sold to perform to spectators, but instead to be capable of fooling magicians. Sure, the general public is more educated and has a better idea of what to look for, but some of these illusions are bordering on ridiculous. A lot of the time, too, those sorts of illusions only really appeal to other magicians.

Not all, but some. I hope this isn't a trend.

 

[jonraiker]

Ideas can not (and if I may add, should not) be patented.

Not to stray too far off topic here, but this is a common misconception in magic (as well as several other artistic fields). Ideas can most certainly be protected - via intellectual property rights:

Intellectual property (IP) are legal property rights over creations of the mind, both artistic and commercial, and the corresponding fields of law. Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; ideas, discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

 

[OneCardWonder]

Not to stray too far off topic here, but this is a common misconception in magic (as well as several other artistic fields). Ideas can most certainly be copyrighted - via intellectual property rights:

Intellectual property (IP) are legal property rights over creations of the mind, both artistic and commercial, and the corresponding fields of law. Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; ideas, discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

Maybe its because I went to law school and so am somewhat miffed by the misunderstanding of basic IP law, but this is just flat wrong.

According to US copyright law, the expression of an idea, discovery or invention can be covered by copyright, the idea itself absolutely cannot be protected by copyright. This is a fundamental tenant of copyright. How can you copyright something you've merely thought up? What do you do? Sue everyone who infringes by merely thinking about it. Of course not. To get around this jurisprudential problem the law in the US, and Europe means that you can only protect the specific expression of an idea in one of the mediums that the law recognizes, i.e. video, text, musical recording, etc.

The letter of the law in the 1976 Copyright act is absolutely clear on this point:

In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

So sure, DG can copyright his performance of a trick, but he cannot copyright the method of the trick. Sure he could write down the method of the trick, and copyright that manuscript, as a manuscript, but absolutely NOT the method. I could read his, write my -own version- in a new manuscript, which would automatically be my copyright, and DG would have no case at ALL against me in any court anywhere in the world. Sure if I just copied and pasted more than the statutorily permitted amount of his text into my manuscript then he could sue me, but not for expressing the method. Basically Copyright lets you protect the specific expression of an idea. For instance, a scientific theory. If I have a theory and I write about it, I can copyright that manuscript as an expression of the thought. That does not prevent anyone else writing down a manuscript about that same theory, even if I thought of the theory. There are too many cases to cite that make this absolutely clear. Replace theory with magical method and you have exactly the same analogy. The only case regarding magical method never hit trial, and was thrown out due to their being no case to answer, but it does serve as a footnote in some law textbooks, which when I have a moment I'll dig out and quote the exact reference.

This is also the case in European Copyright law.

A process, or method is only protected by PATENT, to which it would have to satisfy the three fundamental requirements of patent validity, all of which are outside the realm of most magic. The Tarantula gimmick for example, may be patentable, but the magic that it creates is not, as the process doesn't create anything tangible.

So yeah....you cleared that up awfully. ;-)

 

[descartes]

Onecardwonder made the point perfectly.

Remember, copyright is not the same as a patent is not the same as a trademark .

 

[phrozunsun]

Anyone else notice this thread's title could be abbreviated as "REACT"?

 

[magyk11]

Why would you waste money If you can do it without the video
No dont say " you learn blah blah and he tells you blah blah"
any professional magician will learn how to handle an effect they reverse engineered and maybe even do better than the original.
Ive done it countless times and I know more people dnly People with lots of understanding are reversed engineering.And I bet people with the understanding wouldn't had bought the effect anyways.

Like every single 1 0n 1, Those are easily executed without needing to be bought by someone like me, that has a lot of understanding.I can perform every single one of them, and perform them well. But not everyone is as talented as me so millions of people (usually kids) will buy them. So far nothing from t11 has been "OMG how did he do that" to me.

wow ... what a jerk... your pretty cocky.

so you think your better than everyone don't ya?

cause it sure seems like it.

 

[aJohnson]

All I said was that I will not be wasting my money buying effects I can easily do with my understanding. Morals have nothing to do with this and please don't say I don't know anything about the art. Growing up with a professional magician I was born into this.

I've learn t many tricks by watching them, have I bought them? Yes. I not only respect the artist, but I want to learn how to do it properly and not from a trial and error method.

 

[jonraiker]

Maybe its because I went to law school and so am somewhat miffed by the misunderstanding of basic IP law, but this is just flat wrong.

Perhaps 'copyrighted' wasn't the correct terminology here (and you would know better than I). Just edited my post so it reads 'protected'.

To my knowledge, there are a number of ways you can 'protect' a series of moves that achieve a desired outcome - in this case, the exact methodology behind a magic effect.

Again, don't want to stray too far off topic here (this could be a completely new thread ), especially when I'm not fully knowledgeable in the areas of copyright, patent, trade secret, and trademark law.

Great post OCW.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

I'm kinda stunned at some of the replies. Why is it important to buy the effect? Hmmm,...I'll give this one a shot. Anyone who creates an effect that is actually worth marketing understands the complicity of making it profitable. One we as magicians for the most part see right through bad effects for the most part but what is a bad effect? It's not mechanically weaved with elaborate sleights, or it's an effect that's easily figured out by the magic community but still hits hard with the audience. I knew how pressure was done just by watching the trailer for two reasons. One, he flashes the method in the trailer which I nor a few other members here couldn't believe a mishap like this. Two, it's an obvious method to me,

Me and Blackline artist Chris Alonzo knew this but we still went to Walgreens and bought a bunch of balloons and came back and purchased the instant download on the release night and watched the video right there. We ran out excited at this spectacular effect and started performing it at the Walgreens parking lot and everyone was tripping we went crazy with this. The point we watched the trailer before we purchased the download and saw the flash but out of respect to the artist plus it helps since it was our friend that released the effect but we wanted to understand the structure of the routine.

We see an effect for 60 seconds but these guys perform these effects for years and learn every detail to make it the best presentation the effect can be to get maximum entertainment out of it. For those of you that are out there creating your own magic and you see these effects that you reverse engineer do you have the time to learn it in 60 seconds to get the most out of it, or are you missing several details that make this effect top notch? This is also one of my problems with DVD's today is it's easy sometimes to miss these details but with books you have to pay attention to these details. But without getting off topic this is just my opinion and some food for thought.

 

[Dima]

All I said was that I will not be wasting my money buying effects I can easily do with my understanding. Morals have nothing to do with this and please don't say I don't know anything about the art.

But you're giving the creator the money to be able to perform his "idea". That's the morality in question, not the fact that you don't need to pay because you are aware of the methods taught.
You are paying out of respect for the work the artists has put into creating an effect/presentation/gimmick/method/idea/concept/dvd/book/whatever.

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

The stupidity I have read in this thread (I am not simply referring to the original post) is mind-numbing.

First lets address why you should buy effects.

Creators in the magic world are frequently under-rated. This men and women put in amazing hours of work to not only create the routines they release, but actually make the product they put forth, advertise said product, and more. For example, I saw a Twitter from Wayne Houchin saying he edited the AOM trailer for 10 hours the other day. That is a huge amount of work that deserves to be rewarded.

Also, if you appreciate someone's work, I consider it a responsibility to pay them for their product simply out of courtesy. You are helping these people and providing their income, never forget that.

Next, creativity is a under-appreciated thing. It is easier to riffle stack 5 flushes than it is to create and entirely new way of doing so. The difficulty of creativity is the reason there are many copy-cats, rip-offs and masked magician types out there. Creativity should be rewarded and respected. Purchasing someone's product instead of just ripping it off gives you the right to use the sum of their creative process.


Now to the subject that magicians are the reason their effects get reverse engineered... that is simply absurd.

Since when did an effect have to fool you to be considered worth while. You're a magician, you're in the club, it SHOULDN'T fool you! Certainly there are effects out there that do and these are great, but never forget that your days of being a laymen are long gone. If you only spend your time considering effects that fool you then you will soon run out of things to do.

God, what happened to the days where just redesigning a dove holder, NOT changing the method, not changing the effect, but just simply modifying it was greatly respected. People understood that IDEAS were far more important than moves. Concepts, theory and technique that are individual to each person were so respected and honored. I wish I had been a magician during those days.

The assertion that because a magicians effect can be studied and figured out by a magician sitting at his computer and replaying the video over and over because he doesn't have the respect to purchase the effect and instead will cheat the artist out of what he deserves makes that effect less advanced or poor is a ludicrous and extremely immature thought.


C

 

[Dylan P.]

The stupidity I have read in this thread (I am not simply referring to the original post) is mind-numbing.

First lets address why you should buy effects.

Creators in the magic world are frequently under-rated. This men and women put in amazing hours of work to not only create the routines they release, but actually make the product they put forth, advertise said product, and more. For example, I saw a Twitter from Wayne Houchin saying he edited the AOM trailer for 10 hours the other day. That is a huge amount of work that deserves to be rewarded.

Also, if you appreciate someone's work, I consider it a responsibility to pay them for their product simply out of courtesy. You are helping these people and providing their income, never forget that.

Next, creativity is a under-appreciated thing. It is easier to riffle stack 5 flushes than it is to create and entirely new way of doing so. The difficulty of creativity is the reason there are many copy-cats, rip-offs and masked magician types out there. Creativity should be rewarded and respected. Purchasing someone's product instead of just ripping it off gives you the right to use the sum of their creative process.


Now to the subject that magicians are the reason their effects get reverse engineered... that is simply absurd.

Since when did an effect have to fool you to be considered worth while. You're a magician, you're in the club, it SHOULDN'T fool you! Certainly there are effects out there that do and these are great, but never forget that your days of being a laymen are long gone. If you only spend your time considering effects that fool you then you will soon run out of things to do.

God, what happened to the days where just redesigning a dove holder, NOT changing the method, not changing the effect, but just simply modifying it was greatly respected. People understood that IDEAS were far more important than moves. Concepts, theory and technique that are individual to each person were so respected and honored. I wish I had been a magician during those days.

The assertion that because a magicians effect can be studied and figured out by a magician sitting at his computer and replaying the video over and over because he doesn't have the respect to purchase the effect and instead will cheat the artist out of what he deserves makes that effect less advanced or poor is a ludicrous and extremely immature thought.


C

I believe that you think that my original post was in fact mt opinion. If that is what you think, then you are wrong. It was more of a bunch of radical thoughts thrown together into a post just to spark debate and controversy between people. And I prevailed. But for my actual opinion read this:

This is my opinion on the subject, the=is thread was never really my opinion on the subject, it was moreso a lot of radical thoughts thrown together in order to provoke critical thinking and debate. At those two things, I have clearly succeeded, there can be no doubt about that. But, at this time I feel it would be appropriate for me to give you my opinion on this subject. Here we go...

Magic is just like anything else. A peice of music, a food recipe, a CD, anything. Soemone or some people create it and then it's marketed to the world. However, anybody that has the desire is able to reverse engineer this thing. Does that make it okay to do? HELL NO!!! If you really have the desire to be able to perform that effect or peice of music, or bake that cake, then you should pay the creator for their invention.They put the man hours into perfecting their invention and deserve to be paid fr their time.

However, if you acidentally learn the actual effect, then you should nbot be faulted as it was an accident. For example I acidentally taught myself toplay AC/.DC's thunderstruck on guitar. It was a mistake. Big deal, We will move on.

But what if you create an effect that is similar to the one you saw but involves a different handling, or different sleights? Well, acording to international copyright laws if you change it by 25% it is legally considered your own invention. That's why Oswald the Rabbit, Felix The Cat, and Mickey Mouse all look the same except they have different feet and ears. So creating your own variation is 100% acceptable.

Also, as magicians we advance everyday, that is why we have come out with tricks such as RIOT or TAGGED. These, the camera doesn't even pick up. Also, some people have designed tricks that are mean to fool the camera, using editing or camera cuts. It just shows that when push comes to shove we stay strong and keep climbing up the hill of success, regardless of how steep that hill may get.

It is in fact true that most of our tricks that we perform today are mostly variations on old effects, but we still create new effects that the world has never seen. It's how we stay on our feet as entertainers.

But honestly, if you like a trick so much that you are contemplating sitting in front of a computer screen for five days in order to reverse engineer it, just buy the effect and save yourself some time. That way, you'll learn the effect, You won't get bashed for reverse engineering, and the createor will get his money just like he should....

Dylan P.

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

Dylan,

I know your post was not your thoughts exactly. I was addressing the concepts themselves and the direct opinions from other posters.


C

 

[Namie Ihara]

But you're giving the creator the money to be able to perform his "idea". That's the morality in question, not the fact that you don't need to pay because you are aware of the methods taught.
You are paying out of respect for the work the artists has put into creating an effect/presentation/gimmick/method/idea/concept/dvd/book/whatever.

Nope,
You are not paying to perform the idea,
What you are paying for is the instruction and "advice" on the DVD, You cant sell ideas... only the container of ideas, eg,DVD, Book, CD
If I don't need to be taught something then why should I pay for the instruction?
For respect? Nah, Money does not equate respect at all.
Its not unethical to perform something you learned without buying either,

Do you pay a professor to apply the knowledge you learned to real life???
Or do you pay him to teach you something.?

Please, The Ishkabblible Sandwich is just a classic sandwich with a slightly modified way of revealing the card being "sandwiched".
Would you really cough up 10 dollars just to "use" that grip.
After seeing the performance all I had to do was slightly move the sandwich cards, I mean yeah Maybe I would not be using that technique but since I saw it and learned it I might as well use it. I didn't need to be taught how to perform it so I don't need to pay up.

Its kinda how you don't have to pay every time you sing a song you liked on the radio or every time you decide to do a dance move.

Thread by Wayne Houchin,as soon as I saw it I knew how to perform it and how to prepare it, that does not mean I actually perform it, And even if I did I would not pay for it Because I disrespect Wayne? because I don't appreciate the time he put into coming up with it???

Nope, because I don't need the instruction or the DVD which is what you are paying for.

Now about the "you learn more on DVD, you will have wrong method and perform it badly"" they have been working on it for 10 years" kind of comment.

The reason you dont buy it is because you have that down, If you don't know how to perform it then buy it.Me I dont copy presentations from anyone, I am not a clone I do my own stuff. I do the tricks but they are delivered in my way. And yes the method is a 100% correct otherwise it wouldn't work.

This is just me, You people don't have to be so peski about it.
Geez.
I don't believe people like Sinful, that say they would buy something for the reasons he gave, but If you want to cough up 50 dollars for something u know how to do then go for it.

 

[DannyT]

Nope,
You are not paying to perform the idea,
What you are paying for is the instruction and "advice" on the DVD, You cant sell ideas...

Yes you can sell ideas. Businesses pay big money for people to come up with ideas for logos, symbols, and trademarks. After viewing all the sketches, businesses don't say, "Hmm, you know what, I can re-create that symbol and make it my own so I don't have to pay you any money. Thanks for the idea though."
Doesn't happen like that.
Another thing that they get paid to do is come up with commercial ads for a product or service.
They think it up, present the ad in which they visioned it, and get paid big bucks for it.
So yes, you can sell ideas. Reason because some people are more creative than others.

I don't believe people like Sinful, that say they would buy something for the reasons he gave, but If you want to cough up 50 dollars for something u know how to do then go for it.

Some magicians here actually respect artists and what they do for us.

 

[Namie Ihara]

Yes you can sell ideas. Businesses pay big money for people to come up with ideas for logos, symbols, and trademarks.

No, Not really
What they are buying is "The Logo" , not the idea

After viewing all the sketches, businesses don't say, "Hmm, you know what, I can re-create that symbol and make it my own so I don't have to pay you any money. Thanks for the idea though."

The reason is because you can protect your artwork.[the container of the idea]

So yes, you can sell ideas. Reason because some people are more creative than others.

You can sell anything you want, but thats irrelevant
But in magic we are not buying corporate ideas, we are paying for an instructional DVD
The only way I see your example relating is if the magician is in a room giving me a private lecture.

Some magicians here actually respect artists and what they do for us.

OMG I like totally respect them too (^.^)
I don't need to give them my cash to show my respect tough

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

Nope,
You are not paying to perform the idea,
What you are paying for is the instruction and "advice" on the DVD, You cant sell ideas... only the container of ideas, eg,DVD, Book, CD
If I don't need to be taught something then why should I pay for the instruction?
For respect? Nah, Money does not equate respect at all.
Its not unethical to perform something you learned without buying either,


Nope, you are paying for the idea.

See how annoying it is when people throw out blanket truths?

Ideas are the backbone of everything in this world. These ideas form the foundation for the substance that they affect. If you want to discuss ideas, take a look at intellectual property rights (which has been posted in this very thread).






Do you pay a professor to apply the knowledge you learned to real life???
Or do you pay him to teach you something.?

You pay him to teach you ideas.

Please, The Ishkabblible Sandwich is just a classic sandwich with a slightly modified way of revealing the card being "sandwiched".
Would you really cough up 10 dollars just to "use" that grip.
After seeing the performance all I had to do was slightly move the sandwich cards, I mean yeah Maybe I would not be using that technique but since I saw it and learned it I might as well use it. I didn't need to be taught how to perform it so I don't need to pay up.

What you fail to understand is that the "modified grip" is an idea. It is a concept, it is a foundation of the method that is then used to bring that idea to fruition.

I'll say it again, when it comes to this art, the moves are unimportant. A pass is nothing, listen to me move monkeys, nothing without the theory (ideas) behind it that make it work. These pieces of theory, this bits of knowledge that are behind everything we do are absolutely invaluable. For me, this is what I pay for even when I know the moves themselves.

And, honestly, I've yet to buy something I thought I knew the secret to and not been somehow surprised by something I hadn't thought of.

The knowledge that the creators of these effects have after years of working on them are the pieces that make the effect work.

Without knowledge and theory you're just a kid doing tricks.

Its kinda how you don't have to pay every time you sing a song you liked on the radio or every time you decide to do a dance move.

Singing along in your car? Very true. But to use a song for actual/professional use, my friend I turn you to copyright law.

Thread by Wayne Houchin,as soon as I saw it I knew how to perform it and how to prepare it, that does not mean I actually perform it, And even if I did I would not pay for it Because I disrespect Wayne? because I don't appreciate the time he put into coming up with it???

Nope, because I don't need the instruction or the DVD which is what you are paying for.



Now about the "you learn more on DVD, you will have wrong method and perform it badly"" they have been working on it for 10 years" kind of comment.

The reason you dont buy it is because you have that down, If you don't know how to perform it then buy it.Me I dont copy presentations from anyone, I am not a clone I do my own stuff. I do the tricks but they are delivered in my way. And yes the method is a 100% correct otherwise it wouldn't work.

Tell me, please tell me, that you know as much about Thread as Wayne and therefor do not need his instruction.


This is just me, You people don't have to be so peski about it.
Geez.

If you share your opinions, expect for them to be judged and disagreed with.

I don't believe people like Sinful, that say they would buy something for the reasons he gave, but If you want to cough up 50 dollars for something u know how to do then go for it.

I don't know about Doug, but I've done that very thing. It is not only a sign of respect towards the artist, but I want to be the best damn magician I can be and that means learning the routines from their masters and studying the art form. If you want to just know tricks and not put the time and money into the art that I believe it deserves and requires, then go for it.

My answers are above in red.

C