So Freaking Tired Of This Crap...

[Luis Vega]

So...there is a facebook group here in mexico that is formed with a lot of magicians of mexico... I could say good magicians but I digress...some of them famous...

I digress because they actively encourage the free download of books and videos and share them between them!! I really hate that...and when I ask them why they do that...they use a lot of stupid excuses...I believe that good magicians would really respect the art by respecting other people creations... instead of just plain steal...I really don´t have to many books or dvd´s for the same reason..because I understand they are special and an artist is behind that and he is trying to feed his family by selling his material...I am really f***ing pissed...

Is there anything that can be done? I mean in any way...I also was thinking to leave the group...

 

[Michael Kras]

Sadly, there's little that can be done. It's hard to get through to these people who either don't know they're doing something wrong, or realize it but have a rationale that they totally stick to and believe in. The best thing you can do it not partake or encourage it.

I've heard every excuse in the book... particularly "I don't have the money to buy all this magic. Just because I have a low income that means I'm not entitled to the same magic as everyone else?"

Sadly, that's the way the world works. But there's TONS of great magic that's available cheaply, or for free, and it's totally legal. You can find ebook copies of The Expert at the Card Table that are free and totally legal to distribute because the information is in the public domain. By any stretch, there's always a way to learn magic even if you can't afford to.

 

[RickEverhart]

I don't think much can be done Luis. I have seen both sides of the fence. My magic ring has a magic library of VHS tapes that has probably around 100 videos or so. We all (30) or so of us magicians "check" them out like a card catalog system on a month to month basis for our own viewing pleasure. Is that wrong? Maybe. And I'm sure more than one person has even transferred them over to DVD while in their possession. People in our club trade, borrow, and sell each other effects, DVDs, manuscripts all of the time. This weekend we have one of the biggest auctions in the U.S. that will run from 10:00 A.M. in the morning til 7:00 P.M. at night as fast as the auctioneer can sell items.

 

[Luis Vega]

I don't think much can be done Luis. I have seen both sides of the fence. My magic ring has a magic library of VHS tapes that has probably around 100 videos or so. We all (30) or so of us magicians "check" them out like a card catalog system on a month to month basis for our own viewing pleasure. Is that wrong? Maybe. And I'm sure more than one person has even transferred them over to DVD while in their possession. People in our club trade, borrow, and sell each other effects, DVDs, manuscripts all of the time. This weekend we have one of the biggest auctions in the U.S. that will run from 10:00 A.M. in the morning til 7:00 P.M. at night as fast as the auctioneer can sell items.

I wish I could be there...

But here is different...they even share youtube links!!! to revealed tricks... they don´t even try to hide it!!! they almost seem proud!!

 

[ReservoirRed]

Now with SOPA and ACTA this topic is rampant throughout the internet. And it not as clear cut as it seems.

The expert at the card table is public domain, so it can be read and downloaded for free, because the copyright has expired. However i dont think there is such thing as a public domain dvd! Though there may be public domain motion pictures. Thats off the topic.

The question is, when is it ok to share? Not IS is ok to share, but WHEN. If you were to lend me a beat up copy of a book written 20 years ago, I doubt there is one person here who would cry foul play. There is the point that i can go to my local library and pick up a book on magic, (my library only has childrens magic books, though i have performed an effect out of one) but usually these books are full of sleights and tricks that are considered public domain. In the same way theory11 can release a download on the double lift without anyone's permission. As for the book in my local library, did that author not write the book to make profit? Yes he may care deeply for magic and want to give that gift to others, but he should get paid if he wrote the book. Regardless, he only gets paid for when the library buys the book, not for the countless times people have read it. So if he invents nothing that is in the book, maybe it's not that much of an artistic crime to lend it to others. Maybe there is a difference between sharing a teacher's notes and an artists original work? However if, say, totally out of control was in the library, thats a ground breaking piece of art and and a creative masterpiece, is that ok? It is also sold out and highly sought after, does that make it less ok to lend? There was a time when the latest harry potter book was sold out and in higher demand, but it was available in everyone's local library. See what im getting at? On the library note, my library also has a CD library, with alot of artists currently in the charts, is that foul play?
The subject of availability is relevant too, with the anaconda for example (i dont know of any other sold out cardistry dvd's), that dvd is sought after, and it's very difficult to tell resourceful young people that they cannot have something, ever. Makes them want it more.

I dont pirate magic, i even drew smirks on this very forum when i offered the stone age idea of paying for music instead of downloading it off youtube. But the lines in the sand are becoming more and more vague as technology and perspectives change.

I think you should leave the group because they seem immature, but I dont think you should let yourself get worked up about it. Magic clubs have been sharing secrets, books and videos for years, now they're just doing it online. It was inevitable.

-Kevin.

 

[RickEverhart]

Nice additional comments Kevin. I agree.

 

[ReservoirRed]

Meant to say that i was adding to what you had posted rick, kinda looks like i was stealing stealing your point!

 

[DavidT11483]

I'm sick of this also!

I'm always sad when I see that a trick I bought has been revealed on youtube. I'm strongly against stealing tricks and feel that the people that steal them are not real magicians...a real magician has respect for other's material.

 

[WilliamMckeehan]

Even though it can be annoying just remember It's the magician not the tricks. that seems to help me. Just try to focus on the positives of everything, thinking to much on the negatives isn't healthy. But I do fear some day most modern sleights will be so common my "skills" I have been learning for 4 and a half years will become useless.

But when I see people like Bebel, David Stone, Lennart Green, Danny Daortiz, and David Williamson I have faith magic will stay magical forever!

I know I am rambling, probably because there is no true cure for this issue?

 

[TeeDee]

Regardless, he only gets paid for when the library buys the book, not for the countless times people have read it.

Actually, authors do get a small royalty when someone borrows their book from a library in the UK. In the US and Ireland, and probably other countries, the library-borrowing aspect is normally built into the author's original contract with their publisher. So, effectively, part of their earnings is based on the book being borrowed from a library.

 

[Craig Browning]

I did back to back articles about this issue in VISIONS a few months back and my first and foremost argument is when did it become socially correct to not share your toys and play fair with others? I don't know of a single mage from my age-group who hasn't and doesn't share books, videos. etc. in that this is how the culture was in our youth. As has been pointed out, most magic clubs have libraries, the largest in the world is in the Magic Castle and ANY member can have 100% FREE access to everything in that room including recent releases.

Are you going to tell the Castle or Magic Circle that they are wrong and unethical for doing such things?

When I was a teen the best place to get hold of books on magic were the local public library and frequently stores akin to Barnes & Nobel. Even today you will find large magic libraries that were donated to local libraries after the passing of a local magic buff. You will find books by noted figures being sold at the trendy book stores of the day and interestingly enough NO ONE picks them up that's not at least interested in magic and has the desire to learn and from that initial handful, a very high percentage will get the bug and start wanting more.

THE CRIME when it comes to the circulation of books, videos, etc. is when it is being used as currency; posting to a Torrent site in exchange for a different book for an example. Or those that do back-room horse trades at various forums (the Magic Cafe having the biggest reputation for such antics) and then we get to the eBay clowns that run off illegal copies and sell them on line as legit versions of said product.

THE PROBLEM/CONFLICT is when innocence and common decency that is centuries old is criminalized by money-grabbing sources, be it the wannabe writer or magic merchant that is tied to said product. It is GREED and nothing other, that has blurred the lines when it comes to what has been kosher for centuries and viewed as honorable -- NORMAL -- vs. actual copyright infringements and deliberate theft. The magic industry isn't guilty of creating this problem even though elements within our world have compounded it. It stems mainly out of the film industry and it's fight with the Chinese situation of mass produced bootlegs that saturate the consumer market. In magic (and I hate saying this) the bootleggers tend to come out of Mexico and two other south/central American countries. It's so pronounced that several noted writers refuse to sell to anyone south of the American boarder unless they are established clients and/or reputable individuals.

The other problem writers are facing is the close-but-not-quite plagiarism coming through parts of Europe presently; rehash of American authors (primarily) that sells for significantly less than the original books while tipping the same or very similar techniques and principles, the European author claiming originality and going so far as to claim having used it for years (which is hard to believe, given that most have more than a decade's experience in the field).

While I'm not likely to hand a copy of a $300.00 Jerome Finely book over to some novice that befriends me, I don't think Jerome would be overly up-set if I shared his insights with my working partner. Some of the fanatics in our world claim that I'd have to buy a separate copy for that person and everyone else in my show that would be "in" on the secret. Sorry but no one in their right mind would (or has) ever done that. . . would you? Do you have the extra bucks to pay for all those extra copies?

My question is a simple one, "Where do we draw the line? When do we willingly surround innocence and how life has worked for eons and cow down to the demands of the money grabbers and egos?"

You can ask John Riggs, Banachek and any number of top rated authors about this issue and most of them will tell you that it's simply not worth the cash layout and headaches to deal with these jerks and they simply haven't the time to do so. Yet, you will have Joe Blow that no one really knows of, screaming at the top of their lungs about how people are stealing their material. . . maybe we need to consider the source?