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The Weekly Debate: #3

Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
I'm entitled to my opinion.

Right, except your opinion isn't doing anything constructive or helpful. You're basically just complaining. If you want better questions, nothing's stopping you from starting up your own thread with your own debates, or proposing a different format or different questions. But right now, you're just sitting around whining, "This is dumb! I hate this! This question is stupid!" You haven't offered any better ideas, you're not proposing anything helpful, and you're also being rude about it. You're pretty much trolling.

How about this: instead of coming in here saying, "I'm not helping this at all, but it HAS to change because I say so!" like you're so important we should all stop and obey you, why not suggest a better question or a better topic, in a less rude manner?
 
Right, except your opinion isn't doing anything constructive or helpful. You're basically just complaining. If you want better questions, nothing's stopping you from starting up your own thread with your own debates, or proposing a different format or different questions. But right now, you're just sitting around whining, "This is dumb! I hate this! This question is stupid!" You haven't offered any better ideas, you're not proposing anything helpful, and you're also being rude about it. You're pretty much trolling.

How about this: instead of coming in here saying, "I'm not helping this at all, but it HAS to change because I say so!" like you're so important we should all stop and obey you, why not suggest a better question or a better topic, in a less rude manner?

And just how do you know if I have or haven't made any suggestions?

(Hint: You have no idea.)
 
Right, except your opinion isn't doing anything constructive or helpful. You're basically just complaining. If you want better questions, nothing's stopping you from starting up your own thread with your own debates, or proposing a different format or different questions. But right now, you're just sitting around whining, "This is dumb! I hate this! This question is stupid!" You haven't offered any better ideas, you're not proposing anything helpful, and you're also being rude about it. You're pretty much trolling.

How about this: instead of coming in here saying, "I'm not helping this at all, but it HAS to change because I say so!" like you're so important we should all stop and obey you, why not suggest a better question or a better topic, in a less rude manner?
You nailed it on the head Toyrobot.
And just how do you know if I have or haven't made any suggestions?

(Hint: You have no idea.)

Look at what I bolded. If you really don't agree with the topic, then make your own Thread!
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
Still - the biggest direction magic is heading in is the: "eveyrthing visual is better" style - and I think this is different than in the past - where people understood the effect happened in the mind, and - in a horror movie analogy - the monster in our mind is always more terrfying than the one you can actually see. With our ADHD riddled minds, everything has to happen right away, or we lose interest - so it seems that this focus on visual magic is so important to appease the crowds.

I don't think the analogy quite applies. We're going out there and peddling deception to people who are wary of it. You know when you go to see a magician perform that he is doing something tricky. He's using sleight of hand, special props, and misdirection to create an illusion.

When you see a monster movie, you are accepting that this movie portrays an alternate reality where this monster exists. You and the movie have a contract. You don't question it, you don't say, "No way are sea monsters real - I'm not buying this!" The movie guides you into its reality, and you enjoy the ride. When someone sees a magician perform, they don't do that. They don't suspend reality or buy into the magician's reality. They impose what he's trying to do over their own standards.

If I held a deck of cards and said, "I'll make your card rise to the top!" and then covered it with a handkerchief for a few seconds, then pulled it off to reveal your card at the top - you don't buy that something weird happened. You know I covered the deck so I could do something sneaky. If I just held the deck out in the open and gave it the slightest little shake, and there your card was, that's different. (You'd probably then think a trick deck or something, but still.)

For most people, no matter what, they're just not going to suspend disbelief. Even those buying tickets for a magic show are somewhat skeptical. Why is it we'll let a monster be real, but not magic? Even after the movie, we still have that contract with the film - that monster is still real in that world. Magic never is.

Magic has to be visual because we won't buy it any other way. When we add cover, we're saying, "You can't see this right now." And why can't they see it? Because we're doing something, and the audience isn't allowed to see. Without cover, it's more impressive. True, that doesn't eliminate skepticism, disagreement, and lack of imagination in an audience, but it pulls them in closer.

In your horror movie example, we as an audience can't see the monster for some time. We build it up and imagine the scariest thing, and our own imagination always trumps someone else's. Our vision is scariest. That has a place in magic, definitely - but I don't think it's in this specific case. I think, with visual magic, what we're doing is putting the audience IN THE MOVIE with the monster, letting them see it and coexist with it. Saying, I have nothing to hide. This is what it is.

If anything - this gives us a bigger reason to live the magicians oath and keep the secrets, practice our magic - and become a tight knit group....instead of constantly arguing in forums...but that is another post, that may answer the same question.

Yes. We need to be a community. We need to share more. Create, expand, reinterpret, and present. When you go to a magic site, what are you going to? A store. It's always a store. You have a few outcasts like iTricks and some forums, but 9 times out of 10, it's a store. We need to change that into something more - stores, forums, philosophical journals, presentation networks, and much, much more. A community doesn't just sell crap to each other. They trade ideas, and not for a price.
 
And just how do you know if I have or haven't made any suggestions?

(Hint: You have no idea.)


Enough is enough. I am putting an end to this right now. If you don't like these threads or don't like the questions then that's fine but there are some people who do and there is no need to ruin their fun like this. If you don't like these threads then why post? Why read through all of these posts just to say "Wow this is not fun."? Don't you have something better to do.

Oh yeah. To clear this up for everyone right now he has not sent me any ideas for a new debate question. Thought I might clear that up. So please if you have nothing constructive to say then please just stop wasting your time reading these. If you think you have a better question PM it to me.

Thank You,
Dylan P.
 
Fare enough.

Sorry this turned into a big fight Dylan.P. I didn't expect I would start an argument with my comment, or I might have done it via PM.

Any how, I suggest that you run a search on your topic before posting next time.

Sorry I did not see this before I posted my above statement. Anyway, your apology is accepted. But seriously if you aren't going to participate why post? Go do something else. Anyway, I hope things are cool.

By the way, I do know that this question has been asked before but I feel that it was a very good question that has many multiple veiw points and deserves to be fought over. The point of these threads is to completely argue to death. So please, if you want to join in...

I would love for you to send me a good question for next week so shoot me a PM.

Dylan P.
 
Enough is enough. I am putting an end to this right now. If you don't like these threads or don't like the questions then that's fine but there are some people who do and there is no need to ruin their fun like this. If you don't like these threads then why post? Why read through all of these posts just to say "Wow this is not fun."? Don't you have something better to do.

Oh yeah. To clear this up for everyone right now he has not sent me any ideas for a new debate question. Thought I might clear that up. So please if you have nothing constructive to say then please just stop wasting your time reading these. If you think you have a better question PM it to me.

Thank You,
Dylan P.

I didn't plan on it, but I can't just ignore the people talking to me.

Why would I PM a suggestion to you? Why would anybody? If you have a question go ask it yourself! THAT is why I don't make suggestions. I don't need you to do my work for me.

Way to drag me back into an argument I had just stepped out of Dylan.

And I made the very good suggestion that you search a topic before you post it. (Which was my original complaint.) Now. I am leaving this thread. If you want to talk to me do it in a PM rather than get back off topic and blame it on me.
 
Sorry I did not see this before I posted my above statement. Anyway, your apology is accepted. But seriously if you aren't going to participate why post? Go do something else. Anyway, I hope things are cool.

By the way, I do know that this question has been asked before but I feel that it was a very good question that has many multiple view points and deserves to be fought over. The point of these threads is to completely argue to death. So please, if you want to join in...

I would love for you to send me a good question for next week so shoot me a PM.

Dylan P.

Alright then, we're cool.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Still - the biggest direction magic is heading in is the: "eveyrthing visual is better" style - and I think this is different than in the past - where people understood the effect happened in the mind, and - in a horror movie analogy - the monster in our mind is always more terrfying than the one you can actually see. With our ADHD riddled minds, everything has to happen right away, or we lose interest - so it seems that this focus on visual magic is so important to appease the crowds.


Completely agreed, and yes, to me that analogy makes perfect sense. No I don't think an argument against it should involve covering things up with silks or anything of the like. That would be jumping to conclusions and a complete misunderstanding of the point. To me visual magic like a snap change or (like you said) many of the visual type stuff magicians are focusing on more and more is good for shock value, but that's about all.

There is a lack of thinking and absorbing magic from a Layperson's point of view. Instead magicians nowadays like to think that what they believe is good means it will be good for the audience. And with this mindset we are seeing more of the visual quickies because they might be harder to figure out for a magician than a sequence of double lifts and progressive counting sequences etc... Case in point, I posted this video of an effect which I believe to be very strong magic for laypeople:

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=12050

The trick simply doesn't make sense from a magicians point of view because it's too easy to reverse engineer or just isn't smack in the head visual. The tricks that make sense to recent magicians are the ones they don't understand and can't figure out. That they have a great visual trick that no one can figure out is not the point of magic, but it's becoming increasingly common. I guarantee you that the trick I posted above will not be figured out by laypeople and instead of a visual smack it contains substance and pychology built in. It is more fulfilling for the audience to be able to use their brains during an effect than being smacked with a "look what just happened."

This is what's lacking in magic and Morgician hit it dead on. There is also a failure of recent upcoming magicians to learn from the more experienced. I do not consider myself as such but just because I might handle a difficult move or flourish better doesn't give any right to think I am the better magician. We are in the age of 15 year olds that can clipshift telling magicians of 30 years how to put on a good performance.

Ahhhh. So much effort to say what you feel knowing it will soon be shown as both right and wrong (at the same exact time) in the proceeding replies.
 
Dec 22, 2007
629
0
I think the overall style of magic has improved. Its not all pulling rabbits out of hats, and colorful ribbons, and magic wands, and cheap plastic gimmicks that much anyomore.

Also, there arent as many impractical methods. They've been streamlined to be easier and practical.

However, i think magicians are viewed as nerds nowadays. Thats how i see it for some reason. And there are always the pricks that go online and find some crappy tricks, and then say that they know how you do everything.

Overall, its going downhill. I've been thinking about quitting. Quitting doesn't sound all that bad when I think about it.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Also, there arent as many impractical methods. They've been streamlines to be easier and practical.

I've decided to not respond to the 1st and last comments which exemplify a complete misunderstanding of the evolution of magic.

So, what do you think is easier and more practical and streamlines (sp?)? Because I've seen the opposite in a lot of the recent magic. It would be great to hear some notable examples recently to past effects (that are more practical/easier).
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
Ahhhh. So much effort to say what you feel knowing it will soon be shown as both right and wrong (at the same exact time) in the proceeding replies.

Heh.

Completely agreed, and yes, to me that analogy makes perfect sense. No I don't think an argument against it should involve covering things up with silks or anything of the like. That would be jumping to conclusions and a complete misunderstanding of the point. To me visual magic like a snap change or (like you said) many of the visual type stuff magicians are focusing on more and more is good for shock value, but that's about all.

Many, but not all. That's an important distinction. Not that I'm accusing you of bad language, but simply setting up my own further arguments.

There is a lack of thinking and absorbing magic from a Layperson's point of view.

And here we have the million dollar statement. This is the end problem that almost every other problem in magic causes. I agree with this 100% and support it fully.

Instead magicians nowadays like to think that what they believe is good means it will be good for the audience. And with this mindset we are seeing more of the visual quickies because they might be harder to figure out for a magician than a sequence of double lifts and progressive counting sequences etc... Case in point, I posted this video of an effect which I believe to be very strong magic for laypeople:

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=12050

The trick simply doesn't make sense from a magicians point of view because it's too easy to reverse engineer or just isn't smack in the head visual. The tricks that make sense to recent magicians are the ones they don't understand and can't figure out.

Magicians often confuse personal shock & bewilderment for spectator astonishment. The key point here is that you're confusing YOUR experience for THEIRS. Magicians often buy material they like and they want to see - which is fine. You don't have to always pander to your audience to do magic. The problem arises when magicians don't consider their spectator and try to share the experience.

That they have a great visual trick that no one can figure out is not the point of magic, but it's becoming increasingly common. I guarantee you that the trick I posted above will not be figured out by laypeople and instead of a visual smack it contains substance and pychology built in. It is more fulfilling for the audience to be able to use their brains during an effect than being smacked with a "look what just happened."

I don't see why the two have to be separate. Why not have a visual experience that provides substance and astonishment? We have a common ground here - magic needs to intellectualize and grow, it needs to mean something.

Let me expand "visual" here for a second. I don't simply mean, you can see it happen. I mean that multiple senses are activated when the trick occurs. In Justin Miller's Silver Dream, you see a coin disappear and hear it go as well. And we all know that psychological trick where you can say, "Do you feel that?" and the spectator really does feel something. By visual, I really mean "deep sensory immersion", so maybe I should say that instead of visual.

My argument is that a sensory experience not only can do that, but should, and that in order to evolve, magic needs to A) evoke the senses, as many as possible, either implicitly or explicitly, and B) make the spectator care and think.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Let me expand "visual" here for a second. I don't simply mean, you can see it happen. I mean that multiple senses are activated when the trick occurs. In Justin Miller's Silver Dream, you see a coin disappear and hear it go as well. And we all know that psychological trick where you can say, "Do you feel that?" and the spectator really does feel something. By visual, I really mean "deep sensory immersion", so maybe I should say that instead of visual.

My argument is that a sensory experience not only can do that, but should, and that in order to evolve, magic needs to A) evoke the senses, as many as possible, either implicitly or explicitly, and B) make the spectator care and think.

That could serve as a great definition of "(good) visual" from magics point of view. Not that something happens so quick the eyes do a double take, or that it happened so fast it blasted them into insanity. What you bring up is what I (suspect) Morgician was talking about, and definitely what I was. Visual magic sometimes (and most likely more often and with better results) happens in their minds. It's not uncommon to have someone see something completely different than what you intended. So much forcefulness of 'I will make you see this happen' is something we see so often that frankly I hope the attitude gives way to more subtle approaches being considered.

Your A) and B) are things that people at various stages need to start focusing on. Moreso than trying to make their magic look cool and awesome in an awesome master video.

Peace.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Gripe # 2 about recent magic habits. Everyone wants to make money whether or not they actually have something original. People don't seem to understand that their Awesome idea might have been done before. So we get magicians of 1-3 years experience publishing their "new" ideas! And even worse magic companies going along with it and selling it as the next best thing.

This leads to so much frustration that each time I see a new thread titled "My new trick" I cringe, usually watch it and sometimes make a comment that it's not new. The same thought process of wanting to have something original leads to arguments over how original is original? And it's starting to become a reality that adding a double lift here or there to a previous effect means it's original. This and my previous spiel lead to one thing that I think is the difference from past and present. Not only in magic but to me it sticks out more in magic. Respect. A complete and total lack of respect.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Gripe # 3. Most recent magicians don't want to put up a video of them doing their Awesome trick. The main reason is because they think it will get stolen. And if they do post the trick they usually take it down after 5 people saw it and commented on it. How many times have you visited a "look at my work" thread and when going to the link it produces "removed by user." People are afraid to put out their ideas when there is a horde of disrespectful idiots just waiting to capitalize on it. It's always been that way with magic. It needs to stop. On a debate about the direction magic is ending up we all have a part no matter how small. Just like anything in life, don't be selfish about it. Respect others ideas and opinions and contemplate.
 
Mar 29, 2008
882
3
Hi Guys - wow - take one night off to work, and see what I come back to?

Great posts Sir FansAlot - thanks for the back up.

A few things - I know that I have been reported for saying "Justin Miller" was a unreliable source...that was a joke. Please get over yourselves if you reported me. I could have put in any magicians name - but I decided to use one that I know would get a reliable laugh. I meant nothing by it. I know humour is hard to pick up on - but please...moving on.

As for visual and implied magic - the horror movie analogy is good. Here is why - look at Blair Witch - you never actually SEE the witch - it was a HORRIBLY filmed movie, but had a great cult classic ending. You don't see the witch, so the monster in your head is created (implied magic - LIKE a card coming to the top after doing a DL then placing X card in middle, and showing it on top). This monster scares you, as I would HOPE the monster you create with your OWN imagination, is larger than the one I can create in reality...no matter HOW scary. If you look at a movie like "Halloween" - Mike Myers is creepy and scary, but as an adult mind, I am not scared once I leave the movie. I don't imagine how he MAY look, only how he does...THIS is like visual magic. I SEE the monster you create, or the move (think of the visual rise of "Ray's Rise or any outjogged visual ambitious sequence).

Each has their place - but the question is when and why - however, I personally believe that the implied sequence is stronger, because I allow YOU to use your mind to fool yourself...after all...we all agree magic happens in the mind...not the eye. Moreover, if you look at classic effcets, like Darwin Ortiz' All Backs- he does 3 visual "prints" of a "marked" card from a double back to an ending that happens in the particitpants hand - with a implied change. Classic magic for a reason...well thought out and strong endings.

I really agree with Gripe #2 from Sir FansAlot - I would add that I have never met a good creator that isn't educated on what is out there - we all stand on the shoulder's of giants...and if you trying to become a giant yourself...wouldn't it be good to know your company and who they are?

As for Gripe 3 - I would add this - Good magicians don't post their work on Youtube, because they realize many things - I agree they worry about it being ripped - but they also realize that the camera is an unblinking eye - and much magic can be reverse engineered - I remember when I saw an effect by SIX (the guy with the extra finger) - he fooled me with one of his effects and I watched it enough I figured it out...I would have bought his notes if it weren't for the freebie! SO - this is why I brought up the magicians oath - AS THIS IS EXPOSURE of a different kind. This is where MISEDUCATION and poor magic is found. I get asked many times "how did you learn magic"...and half the time, they will add - "did you learn it off the internet"? Now honestly - I didn't - I learnt it in every way BUT the internet - but if a lay audience can make that assumption - and IS RIGHT about how many learn magic - how is this NOT exposure, when they can go home and learn much of what they will never learn more than the secret of.

WE NEED TO RESPECT THE SECRET - and right now - we are not - but we barely respect each other....as I have seen MORE competitive and ego driven magic - than a brotherhood that says - I don't care what magic you are doing, as long as you are doing it well and people enjoy it. TOO MANY OPINIONS - as we all feel we are doing it "right" - this is why I recommend a "religious TYPE dogma" for the most part - as we should all make magic LOOK like magic - and not a series of moves.

As Ammar said...and the dude knows what he is talking about - YOUR MAGIC SHOULD EITHER LOOK LIKE EXTREME SKILL THAT SHOWS THE BEST TALENT - OR IT SHOULD BE BEYOND SKILL...THAT SKILL CAN'T EXPLAIN WHAT THEY SEE. Look at your magic, how many can say they are one or the other. NOT BOTH - IT DOESN'T SAY A MIX.

So - your magic should look like CARDISTRY at it's best - or it should look MOVELESS, like Tamariz magic - and sorry - most VISUAL magic the sleight happens during the effect and this is too close together.


I know this is odd - but I think Ortiz has collected TWO books that we should make our "bibles" - Strong Magic and Designing Miracles - he has collected these books to create standards of deceptions - and if we all strived for what is written in his books - magic would be FAR better. It is the ideal - even if he himself struggles to uphold it - IT doesn't make the logic any less true.

So - where is magic going? It is NOT headed in the direction that is best for magic - as the MANY are interested in the NEWEST trick or deck of cards - while the FEW want to create BETTER standards of deceptions - so when we all get together we can discuss logically weaknesses to magic and strengths with PRESET standards, rather than OPINIONS from the mass of inexperienced.

HOWEVER - because of magic egos and the inability to take feedback constructively....the MASSES will dictate the direction of magic - HOWEVER, there is ONE larger mass that will really decide - THE PUBLIC.

Say what you want - but I have tried to live the words and ideas that Ortiz writes (as they are not just his own, but from the minds of many like Tamariz, Ascanio, Wonder, etc) and it has made ALL the difference. I have magic friends that do the same...and do VERY well with magic...and some friends that don't...and don't do as well. For me, the proof comes in how people's perception of magic has changed from a negative to a positive....

ANYONE can do magic for people that love it - but can you make someone that thinks they hate it - love it? Afterall, if magic is to have any direction at all - it is necessary that those that DON'T do it, want to continue seeing it - and with the likes of Angel making magic unbelievable...and not in the good sense, I mean - people aren't willing to suspend their disbelief when watching TV magic - we already are beginning to have an uphill climb.


SO - it is up to you to educate - but what are your teaching goals?

Magic's direction is NOT our choice - but your experience with it IS - so have something worth sharing, so you can leave magic better than you found it.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
I take that into deep consideration as all should.

Sit down and think about what you are doing. Look at your cards and think about what they mean to you. I can do this and I can do that does not cut it. Think deeply about it. I can do what he did does not cut it. Look at your magic and decide what it means to you and realize your potential. Don't rely on superstars to give you ideas. And don't let your ideas take over. In other words, relax.
 
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