The World's views

[meggisonj]

The world is full of rules.

People are so obsessed with the rules they think they need to create (to protect themselves) which leads to overlooking their real mission.. "personal growth". What rules do I have? I need to grow as a person everyday or I have failed. You do what you want. I'll show support as long as your respectful.

"If you're building a business on trade secrets or lack of information among your customers, you're trying to fill a leaky bucket. Far easier to bet on the more people know, the better you do."- Seth Godin

 

[Justin.Morris]

Interesting. I'm not sure what's behind this, or what this was truly directed towards.

However on the topic of rules, I would submit that rules are a good thing. A very good thing. In fact, the right combination of rules can help you achieve your goals faster and more efficiently.

My mission is not personal growth (it's important, but not an end goal- perhaps more of a means to an end), but if it was, then I would want to follow certain rules to govern and facilitate the type of growth I am hoping for. For instance, I might make integrity a rule for myself. and I would follow that rule to guide my decisions and my growth. Think of a hockey game without rules. -Total chaos. People hiding the puck, swinging their sticks like swords, moving the net - it would be nuts.
Rules make the game fun, and that's the goal.

As for the quote (Love SG btw), I love when magicians can share their gimmick in full and let us make informed decisions. We are in a tricky business though. We must keep secrets. It's part of the gig and how we sell ourselves. So we must apply Seth's point in our context. Even though we can't share the workings of an effect, the routine, and in many cases the gimmick, there is a lot of information that can be shared.

When I sell my show, I don't tell the clients every effect and routine, but I give them plenty of information for them to make informed decisions, and ultimately be satisfied with their decision.

Interesting thoughts. Care to flush it out more or articulate it further?

 

[meggisonj]

Sure thing! My thoughts on magic are different to say the least. I understand my views are NOT widely excepted and that's what makes me different and precious at the same time. People that share the following view will ALLOW for the barriers to be broken. (just check out what David Williamson has to say about breaking rules). His "don't be afraid to fail" advice gave me the best trick I have.

Imagine this.. Magic is built on secrets.. not emotion like cinema, music, and plays. Do you care when you know the shot was done with a green screen? Why did fight club do so well and become a cult classic? Positive EMOTIONS it bonded people though the ins vs outs. Why does Katy Perry have so many No. 1 hits and Sara bareilles have MUCH less? MORE Positive Emotions and better questions and but they both bond people through the ins vs the out! What does Positive emotions have to do with secrets? Secrets alienate people. Magicians being superior makes the audience have less powerful positive emotions. We think it allows them to see dream of all their "what ifs". But what it does, is make people afraid to speak out. Silencing a group is never good. The people that do speak out have an authority complex. Because "they are not excepted into the ins group for who they are" making them the outs.

There's hostility and a negative "on edge" feeling from spectators because they think they NEED to catch the magician. Magicians are the best audience members (more often then not) because we understand how the trick is done. Bad showmenship will be heckled from magician to magician.. And it should NEVER be the exposure of a trick.

If you bring VALUE to any group.. you win the battle of being accepted. Now what if Jay Sankey taught a trick before he performed it? Even to a layman! There is no superiority between Jay and audience releasing the tension of "I'm better than you". Everyone is on a level playing field (magician to magician).. plus you allowed non magicians in on a secret. This is a sales technique.. (You're selling yourself). Magic is too much a game of superiority (ins vs. outs) and not enough positive emotion. fitzkee touches on this.. but doesn't say why secrets don't need as much protecting as we are led to believe now.

Another Seth Godin Quote.. "Too often, we spend our time on a little more polish, instead of investing in the breakthrough that a [good question] can bring." Like this post.. I spend WAY too much time reviewing it and polishing it. And who wins because of the extra 20 minutes I spent on it? ME?! YOU?! No. It's the same information with less typos and a more controlled point of view.

What questions do you ask yourself in your magic everyday?

 

[krab]

When I perform I'm not presenting magic as a puzzle or a challenge. If you are getting negative reactions it is how you are presenting it. By looking at your videos and how you talks about the effects like

What the audience sees: You first take a cute little card and vanish it from under someone's snot filled nose...

make it seem you have no respect for the art or for the spectators. It seems like you just want to be famous and trying to use youtube to get there. It really seems like you think the spectators will like you more if you tell them how it is done. Well if they know how it is done there is no wonderment there. There is no entertainment. There is only you saying you are doing it under their snot filled nose.

 

[Randy]

I believe Tamariz and Michael Ammar had a much better way of thinking about. Go in with the idea of giving people a gift. This could actually work out great if you are restaurant performer. Take a blank piece of paper, turn it into a dollar bill and then give it to the people at the table as a gift.

 

[meggisonj]

Krabman! Your first comment was SPOT ON! "When I perform I'm not presenting magic as a puzzle or a challenge" I NEVER get negative reactions anymore. I actually BOND through magic.. Not use magic to bond. And not try and bond by fear and superiority. Because I, like you, don't use it as a challenge. My magic is a play where it doesn't matter what angle they are.. but they WANT the mystery to be alive. Before I learned about an underground community I did have trouble performing magic. TONS of trouble. Then I learned it's really not about the effect. People buy YOU for your gig.. it has nothing to do with what you perform. I've heard of magicians showing gimmicks around before they used it. If you're mission is entertainment and you don't understand people.. You'll never get entertainment. Positive emotions are the only way to entertainment. Not mystery. Mystery can add to what you want.. but it's used as a crutch right now. I respect all walks of life.

Now on to part two. You couldn't be further from my mission. I actually have a lot of respect for the art. If you know my "definition of success" you would see how much I respect it. But right now.. there are too many magicians that are uptight! I can be hated for the greater good of magic.. I don't care. I am seeking like minded magicians. Not trying to create the next great magic company. Fame means nothing to me. Notoriety means nothing to me. A community means everything. Deconstructing "givens" and challenging them is the only what for anything to grow. What have you deconstructed lately?

I am thinking of the future here. For all magicians.

"No community is best served when the elite is in control." J.J. Abrams.. And theory11 trusts him enough. Do you?

Don't forget to feed the bears!

 

[Colin]

Imagine this.. Magic is built on secrets.. not emotion like cinema, music, and plays.

Properly presented magic is built on emotion, memorable routines are built around emotional hooks. I might agree if you said that tricks are built on secrets but would argue that what takes it from a trick to magic is the addition of emotion.

I agree with Karb 1 that it comes across as a lack of respect for you audience and that is going to create a hostile emotion from those watching.

I also think you need to figure out how to separate marketing advice from preforming advice and even then is sounds like you are misinterpreting some of it. If you spend an extra 20 minutes polishing a post and get rid of typo and arrive at a more controlled point of view then both of us win because you look more professional and I have an easier time understanding you.

If you spend 20 minutes more polishing a magic routine both you and your audience win because your presentation is going to be that much better.

Magicians are a different audience, I wouldn't say the best unless your goal was to work for magicians in which case then maybe they are. If you are an inventor and spend your time teaching methods to magicians then maybe you could argue that method trumped presentation but if you are a performer then well the names says it all, it is the performance that matters.

I am not entirely sure though what you true point is. Are you saying that showing the audience how things work is a good idea? Because it almost never is.

 

[strudles]

Don't forget to feed the bears!

Upon googling, it is revealed that you are trying to tell us not to forget to refrain from prescription narcotics. Good enough advice I guess, but what is its relevance?

 

[krab]

"No community is best served when the elite is in control." J.J. Abrams.. And theory11 trusts him enough. Do you?

No i don't. I have seen two Star Trek movies. Remember it isn't Khan, but wait it was. He would have shocked us all had it be Gary Mitchel, but guess what happens when you have never seen the show.

I watched Lost. We were told they were not dead and there were no time travel Spoiler Alert totally dead and time travel. The only thing of his that is any good is the Batman show he produces Person of Interest but that is not really his show.

I'm sorry I can not tell what you are trying to say or where you are coming from. You ramble on and on like it is four or five different people writing your post. You say you do not preent magic as a challenge but you then you post stuff like

What the audience sees: You first take a cute little card and vanish it from under someone's snot filled nose...

You say you are thinking about the future of magic but you want to give away all of it's secrets. BTW this system we have of not telling has worked since the beginning of time. You say you care but you try to sell magic that isn't yours on your youtube channel.

Right now there are just a few things wrong with magic.
A) A good chunk of people under 30 thinks that everything should be free on the internet.
B) A good chunk of people want it all and they want it now.
C) A good chunk of people want to be famous and think that the internet will turn them into the next Jonathan Coulton. It doesn't work like that.
D) A good chunk of the current crop of young magicians do not know how to perform as themselves and try to copy the flavor of the week in the magic world.

When those of us who have put in the hard work. Who have spent years learning what we know. Those of us willing to share what we have learned try to point out these things we are told we are jelly or haters. No WE do love magic. WE understand how to get where these people would like to go. WE know how to connect with the spectators. WE are willing to share all of this. There are guys who have sent me PMs and after just a few exchanges they how a whole new outlook on magic and performing. They see what we have been talking about on here and why we say what we say. We share with them the books and lecture notes where to find some of these great gems. But for us to share we have to see that they get it. Sadly many do not.

 

[meggisonj]

Colin before I read you're comment.. I want to thank Krab 1 for his constructive criticism.. It really shows that you are a standup guy and are trying to do your part in progressing magic. I will always respect that.

Now that I read Colin's review I thank him too. Keep doing what you think is best Colin.

Colin, I understand you want polished work. But it's not always worth the time. You have no idea how it's going to be received until you give it. Practice on magicians.. see where the idea takes you.. but remember.. magician see magic differently. Magicians have become jaded.

As for forum messages typos are not good.. but are overlooked and you get feedback. (like this) A more controlled message leads to LESS inspiration. You're brain makes connections with what YOU (the reader) wants. Not what I (the writer) wants. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm not trying to get you on my side. Inspiration is my name of the game. If you want to buy then buy anything you want.. but not because I said so, because you agree with the mission! I have had a few donations already. I couldn't thank him enough! He the kind of person I create for. Artistic, laid back, giving. I give to those that want inspiration. Not a polished diamond.

 

[meggisonj]

I like it Randy!

 

[krab]

Colin before I read you're comment.. I want to thank Krab 1 for his constructive criticism.. It really shows that you are a standup guy and are trying to do your part in progressing magic. I will always respect that.

Now that I read Colin's review I thank him too. Keep doing what you think is best Colin.

Colin, I understand you want polished work. But it's not always worth the time. You have no idea how it's going to be received until you give it. Practice on magicians.. see where the idea takes you.. but remember.. magician see magic differently. Magicians have become jaded.

First that was a pretty back handed complement to Colin. It seemed a pretty patronizing remark to me.

Again from seeing your videos we know you do not care about working on your stuff and getting it ready to present to the general public. Magicians are the worst to work new material out on. Why? Because they think like magicians. This is why most magicians ask if you want to change your mind when they have you pick a card. No one wants to change their mind. They never suspect it is the coin that is the gimmick they thing it is the bottle. Magicians like to run when they are not being chased. The real workers out there do not bring something into their working sets till it is ready. Have some respect for the magic for the trick and for those whom you are presenting your maigc.

 

[meggisonj]

Rule are rules. Rules were not MEANT to be broken.. but they can be changed.

 

[strudles]

To what rules are you referring? This thread seems not only convoluted, but is only brought up out of frustration from other's criticisms. Everyone is telling you that you ought to practice more... Are you arguing that there is no need for you to practice?

 

[krab]

Rule are rules. Rules were not MEANT to be broken.. but they can be changed.

If you think it is a good idea to tell people who it is done and do magic before it is ready then no we are not changing any rules. I'm sorry you want to be well liked and famous with out putting in the work but just doing sloppy magic and telling people how it is done is not how magic works. I mean do you want to see a band who didn;t practice and screws up in the middle of the song? Do you want to see a play where the actors forget their lines? No so why would people want to see half baked magic? They don't.

 

[krab]

To what rules are you referring? This thread seems not only convoluted, but is only brought up out of frustration from other's criticisms. Everyone is telling you that you ought to practice more... Are you arguing that there is no need for you to practice?

Two for two on getting it in these threads today. I'm going to have to get to baking you some cookies.

 

[Justin.Morris]

Rule are rules. Rules were not MEANT to be broken.. but they can be changed.

I disagree. Rules can be broken and changed. However this can only be well done once you understand the rules, what they are, and why they are there.

An example. The rule is no exposure. That means practicing before showing an effect (or putting it on YouTube) for instance. Penn and Teller have built their shows on exposed magic. How? Because they know the rules inside and out. I could not pull that off in my show because I am still learning the rules of performance.

Krabs response deserves more discussion.

 

[krab]

Which one I have ton of theory I have only scratched the surface on. Things I have seen starting to pop up over the last 10 or so years.

 

[slicksleights]

If you bring VALUE to any group.. you win the battle of being accepted. Now what if Jay Sankey taught a trick before he performed it? Even to a layman! There is no superiority between Jay and audience releasing the tension of "I'm better than you". Everyone is on a level playing field (magician to magician).. plus you allowed non magicians in on a secret. This is a sales technique.. (You're selling yourself). Magic is too much a game of superiority (ins vs. outs) and not enough positive emotion. fitzkee touches on this.. but doesn't say why secrets don't need as much protecting as we are led to believe now.

I have read this thread a few times now and I'm very confused. Are you actually trying to argue that to make magic enjoyable for an audience you should be letting them in on how the effect is done? Also are you saying that in your opinion the best audience for magic is magician's? If I am right on both of these points then, you really need to think about what your are doing in magic, you are seriously missing the point of what magic and being a magician is. I'm not going to say anymore right now in case I have completely miss understood what your are say and if this is the case I apologize. If you could clarify this for me that would be appreciated.

 

[JButterfield]

Sure thing! My thoughts on magic are different to say the least. I understand my views are NOT widely excepted and that's what makes me different and precious at the same time.

Views that aren't widely accepted aren't necessarily precious; someone might hold the view that a successful kid's show should contain screaming and obscenities for instance.

Do you care when you know the shot was done with a green screen?

That's the willing suspension of disbelief; we suspend disbelief in whatever conceit is necessary to advance the narrative. While I'm pretty sure that there are no wizard schools, nor flying broomsticks, I was able to suspend that disbelief to enjoy Harry Potter.

It works differently in magic; we are giving them an experience of the impossible, and they can't just suspend their disbelief in the same manner. If they see the loop, it ruins the magic. If we see the key lines in Star Wars Episode 4, we can suspend our disbelief to continue on in the story.

Why did fight club do so well and become a cult classic? Positive EMOTIONS it bonded people though the ins vs outs.

Without spoiling the film, I would hardly call Fight Club a film of 'positive emotions.' I think its success is due to a compelling story and good performances.

Why does Katy Perry have so many No. 1 hits and Sara bareilles have MUCH less?

Same reason McDonald's is huge, and and restaurant with a Michelin star is small; one is vapid crap for mass consumption, and one is not.

Secrets alienate people. Magicians being superior makes the audience have less powerful positive emotions.

These are two different things; Some secrets are necessary - unless you want to know "whodunnit" and then sit through the movie. Or to preserve the experience of the impossible.

And who wins because of the extra 20 minutes I spent on it? ME?! YOU?! No. It's the same information with less typos and a more controlled point of view.

Or it may be a more refined, better polished, more representative expression. It might be presented to avoid misunderstanding, with greater precision and fidelity to the concept. It might make you look smarter by using the right words. In editing it, you may be led to an even better conclusion, reduce misunderstanding and promote greater acceptance of your concept by expressing it with greater clarity, and promoting greater understanding. Why wouldn't you want that?

Everybody wins when you spend 20 more minutes; I get a clearer picture, you express things exactly as you mean them, and our communication is less ambiguous. Why don't you want that?