Weekly Debate Question #3...

[Dylan P.]

Well, so far the weekly debate has been doing all right but I think that many people skipped over the second question bevcause they didn't read the title. So, I have come to the conclusion that every new question for the debate will have its own official thread.

For rules and info on "The Weekly Debate", go here: http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=9323&highlight=weekly+debate

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Well, down to buisness. First we had the question: "Will Youtube and other video sites kill magic" then there was "When making a video of performances, should you be performing for a real audiance in the video." These raised some good points and all went well. So now I introduce question #3.

I have seen a lot of threads directed towards Criss Angel this week due to that television special and I wondered if some people shared same veiws as me. So this week we'll switch it up a bit and try this. Here is the new question:

"DO YOU LIKE CRISS ANGEL? WHY OR WHY NOT?"

NO Criss angel bashing. state your feelings and leave it at that.

 

[Dylan P.]

Here is what I think of Mr. Angel. First of all I really don't like him that much, however I am not so against him that I wish he would die or something like that. I will give a list of reasons I don't like him.

1: He uses stooges.
2: He edits his videos.
3: He is more of an escape artist than magician.
4: He uses TONS of camera trickery.
5: He Scares his mom to death with his stunts!!!

But then I look at it this way. He is a performer and he needs to make money so he can support himself. He gets his money through his TV sjhow and specials. And if he keeps himself alive by using a few camera tricks and some video editing software then that is what he has to do. I mean we would all do the same thing if we had to keep ourselves alive by doing a TV show.

So before we bash him I think we all need to think about that. So I am on the edge with him. i don't like him but I don't hate him either.

 

[Zeedub81]

I lost some respect for Criss Angel with his final "escape." It didn't really matter if it was live because it was the same as his other "escapes." He plays it like he will die if he doesn't get out in time, then he doesn't make it out in time and then he appears somewhere else. Doesn't he do that with all the other really dangerous "demonstrations." I wish he would've manned up and actually gone through with what he said he was going to do.
Z

 

[holo]

I do not like him as a magician, but I have respect for him as an entertainer. He has his TV show to cater to the majority of people, who are not magicians. The way I look at it, is that he is there to entertain, not necessarily do good magic.

 

[visualartist]

Like i said before.
He's a dreadful magician but a wonderful showman.
At least ion T.V.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

I will give a list of reasons I don't like him.

1: He uses stooges.

2: He edits his videos.

4: He uses TONS of camera trickery

Not that I disagree with you there, but how can you be certain of this? We all say he uses camera tricks and such, but this is all... speculation.

 

[Sean_Raf]

I don't like Criss Angel because he fools me and does stage illusions on the street which obviously wouldn't work without everyone walking by and watching being a stooge.

Criss is a performer and whilst I don't agree with him using camera trickery most of the time, I honestly don't mind him using stooges. Mindfreak is a lay-audience show who don't care what the method is, it's a fascinating magical illusion. So that's how I watch it, I forget that I know how he did the coins across routine into a glass and I just watch it for what it is, a modern street illusion/magic television program.

Let's not forget that he has a stage show in the Luxor, OMFG EVERYONE THAT WATCHES IT MUST BE A STOOGE!

- Sean

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I'm not liking this ego-maniac side of Criss that comes out far too often than it should. But at the end of the day, he fools people who watch it on the television. And isn't that what magic is about for you guys now these days? Fooling people? Because fooling immediately instigates entertainment right? I was watching Mindfreak the other night, and I was genuinely entertained, I have no idea how he did most of the illusions, nor do I care; I was fooled and entertained. NOTE: I was not entertained because I was fooled.

 

[DannyT]

I like watching his shows because some of his tricks give me ideas.
Some of which I can work with while others lead me to a dead end.

I watch a trick and try thinking of a way I can do it without using stooges or camera trickery, of by more cover or something.
Taking his ideas and throwing a little of my own mix into it, is a good way to enhance my magic, and a good way to train your brain on thinking outside the box.

 

[James Wise Magic]

Let's not forget that he has a stage show in the Luxor, OMFG EVERYONE THAT WATCHES IT MUST BE A STOOGE!

Please tell me you were be sarcastic.

 

[Sean_Raf]

Please tell me you were be sarcastic.

I was not in anyway being sarcastic.

- Sean

P.S. Now I'm being sarcastic.

 

[James Wise Magic]

Like I have said in many threads:
I personally like Criss Angel. I do not like his ego-maniac side, but he is a great entertainer, which afterall is what magic is all about.

I'm not here to discuss if I think he uses Camera tricks or stooges. I have my own opinion upon that. But I do think that some of his illusions are quite good and entertaining.
And Also I think that he has inspired others to get into the art of magic and actually perform well.

 

[brainblower]

I like when he does magic without camera tricks. (Yes, there are a couple of those)

But i dont like his stupid tricks that goes way beyond normal "magic". ( like turning 8 year old to 21)

Still i like to watch the show...

 

[Sean_Raf]

But i dont like his stupid tricks that goes way beyond normal "magic". ( like turning 8 year old to 21)

Who defines what "normal magic" is out of interest? I thought we were all in the business of doing the impossible with whatever methods.

- Sean

 

[brainblower]

Who defines what "normal magic" is out of interest? I thought we were all in the business of doing the impossible with whatever methods.

- Sean

I know what youre saying but i think the little girl was not amazed by that trick. I just dont like that trick because it wont work with live audience...

 

[D_W_B]

Here's a question to ponder:
Does Criss Angel's magic negatively effect the way spectators view you or anyone else as a magicians. Because making a card jump to the top of the deck, or making a small coin vanish and reappear pales in comparison to Criss walking on water, or magically aging a girl.
When performing for an every day spectator, are they expecting a Criss Angel sized miracle, or a clever show of prestidigitation and patter.

 

[Sean_Raf]

I know what youre saying but i think the little girl was not amazed by that trick. I just dont like that trick because it wont work with live audience...

It won't work with a live audience? Or so far no one's been able to figure out how it would do it for a live audience?

In simplicity, it's just a metamorphosis illusion but performed in a modern shop environment. Yes okay so it's quite obvious that the little girl and her older counter part were performers too. BUT if, Criss and/or his team were able to conjure a way of doing the illusion in a shop (bare in mind, this was not done for a live audience) then who are we to say it's a camera trick, rubbish, not performable etc.

I'm just throwin' things out here.

- Sean

 

[Dylan P.]

well guys, I am absolutely loving the participation here and I am getting a good feeling about letting each queston have its own thread. This discussion has also been really good in letting others see your veiws on someone who is well known. I now have begun to think about much of what you have said and I am beggining to see other sides of the story. thank you guys.

On a more dismal note: Some of the participants here are getting a bit to argumentative. (You know who you are.) And i would just like everyone to re-read the rules in the first weekly debate thread. the link is in my first post.

Anyway guys, have fun and keep the posts coming.

 

[Gerbear23]

chris angel likes to create completely outlandish tricks that are impractical. i cant take his big tricks seriousley because it is way to obviouse that nothing like that could ever happen . on the other hand some of his close is very impressive. he is pushing the envelope way to far

 

[Steerpike]

1: He uses stooges.

So do many of the greats in the history of our art. It only became demonized in the last generation or so.

I wish he would've manned up and actually gone through with what he said he was going to do.

Personally speaking, I also would take the method that is the most likely to not result in death. If, by your logic, that makes me less of a man, then call me Sissy McDoilyPants. But truth be told, I'd rather be a living wuss than a dead moron.

 

[Chase]

My frustration over Angel seems to center around two general issues:

1. Cheating outside of the rules he himself establishes: I have no problem cheating, lying, distracting, etc. to accomplish the effect. However, if you establish your rules up front by saying things like "I don't use stooges or camera tricks" (which Angel has done in many shows and interviews) then you break the rules you just established it's hard to have respect for the performer. And I do think that laypeople pick up on that. Not all of them. Not all the time. But often enough.
Derren Brown does a much better job in his disclaimer. He states that he will use psychology, trickery, and even lying to accomplish his effects he is then free to operate within those rules. I can pick out several routines where he has edited out pre-show work, misses, etc, but I'm ok with that because he is still performing within his own established boundaries.

2. He is perfectly able to do well crafted, visual, spectacular, boundary pushing magic WITHOUT using camera effects, editing, and stooges to accomplish the effect. I've seen him do it. I know some people have been upset with my "bashing" Angel in some other posts, but I really am pulling for Criss' new live show. His previous stage show was remarkable and ground breaking and I know he has it in him to do a GREAT performance. Being a fan of his GOOD work makes it that much more painful when he does something like the building escape using methods like "pre-tape" and "running really fast to the grassy patch while trying to hide from the news chopper in the smoke". (Incidentally, Marlo was the first to use the method of "running really fast to the grassy patch while trying to hide from the news chopper in the smoke" in his Ace Assembly. Credit where credit is due.)