What is magic? The threshold between trickery and artistry.

Feb 27, 2008
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Grand prairie TX
I was going to open a thread about that, but I can just continue here...

What you just described was a "scientific presentation/explanation" of an effect, not magical. And I totally support scientific types of presentation, they are more "logical" and believable.

This thread goes neck to neck with Morgician's thread "What do you think?". He was talking about magical approach, like fairy's and unicorns and whatnot. I think that kind of presentation is only for the "chosen ones". But if you are aiming to a larger population (you know, restaurants, bars, party's), than scientific approach is a way to go.

If you (visualartist) tried to present KAOS in this way: "Look, I have magic dust in my pocket, that was made by a 1000 horns of unicorns, and if I put this magic dust at my fingertips, I can go through solid, and pull your card out. All I need to do is say "Shalakazam" (or whatever), and look, it's melting through the glass", that wouldn't fly with your audience.

Andrew Gerrard discussed this same topic in his interview on TA. He also likes scientific approach more than a magical one...

Thats just it though!
Some magic effects have been explained or presented as a scientific thing.
And yet laymen have still called it magic.I know.I hear it all the time.
So it brings me back to the question:what is magic?
One can mix scientific explanations with other effects that have none and you are still called a magician and it is still called magic.
Even though i presented KAOS as something that is scientific, my friends still called it magic and so have other spectators.

I think that we should remember and recognize what it once was to be on the other side of the performance.When we were laymen.
When we didnt know about double lifts and gimmicks.
To remember what magic was to us and do the same for our audience.
Instead of giving meager performances and 'eye candy' tricks.
 
Feb 27, 2008
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Grand prairie TX
The definiton of a magician-
A magician is a person skilled in the mysterious and hidden art of magic, the ability to attain objectives, acquire knowledge, or perform works of wonder using supernatural or nonrational means.[1]

I did use 'science' to perform that effect(KAOS) but at the same time defied it.
By definition it is magic.
We as magicians can shape it,shift it, and make it as real as the room your in.
Instead of giving people a moment.Why dont we give them something to remember forever?
Many people dont see magic as often as we think.Less even in person.
So when you encounter your audience keep in mind that you are probably the first magician they have seen in person.Give them something real to remember.
Not a David blaine wannabe performance(no one has the presence of David and they shouldnt try to replicate it)
One of my spectators tells me every chance he gets of a piece of magic that i did for him that it was "a life changing experience".
Shouldnt that drive us instead of just most of what ive seen here like "as long as they're entertained" attitude.
And you wont achieve this everytime you perform,but at least your not satisfied with mediocrity.You are aiming higher than that.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Belgrade, Serbia
Maybe we are steering away from original point of this thread, but you are right. I will still use "scientific" approach and presentation, and if someone calls it magic, than that's even better; instead of doing "Wizard" presentation and then hope that people will believe I did real magic.

Also, in my opinion, if you present it in "scientific" way, and say that you pulled a card through window because you changed your perception of things, and lift that blockade from your brain etc. than even if people say at the end "wow, great trick" you can easily say "it is trick of the mind, not sleight of hand or trickery" or something along those lines.

Or, you can make it "real" even more... Example that Gerrard use in his interview is this: "you know that situation when you are looking for your keys and you can't find them, even thou they are right in front of you? That is called negative perception", and than goes into coin vanish routine. Some will say that it was real magic (in which case, your job is done correctly), others will say it is trick of the mind, and believe your scientific discovery. But I don't think that someone will say "it is a good trick (in a negative way)".
 
Jan 28, 2009
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And I would tend to agree. But I would also suggest that those reactions might at the very least give us an idea of whether or not we're facing the right direction. At the very least, it's worth considering.


And I would tend to agree with your original assertion that allowing a subjective reaction to act as your foundation for anything leads to genres being way too mouldable to how a particular audience is feeling on any given day. That's not to say I don't agree that reaction can play a part. (After all, I'm cheap and easy, I like to make my audiences smile, beyond that I lack the talent.)


That opens up a few questions from me personally. Would you consider film an art? What about theater? Comedy? Rock and roll?

I would consider anything an art that can transcend what it is to speak on a higher level. Music, of any kind, theater (which is the art of performance in my opinion) film are all arts. My reasoning being (and it may have some holes in it) that through music you can create imagery, fundamentally affect mood according to the exact design of the piece and its composition. (I don't know of many people being moved to tears by a magic trick for reminding them of a lost love.) Film can provide a message beyond the basics. It can create heroes in people's heads and villains, and allows people to live through something else and imagine for one second etc etc etc (insert more artistic justifications here.) I could repeat this exercise endlessly, but there would be little point. You should get the gist of what I'm aiming at. If not, I apologize.

As I write this it occurs to me that I consider magic to be something like juggling. (No I don't flourish!) What I mean by that is, I may recite a poem whilst I'm juggling, and people may think, great poem. I may tell a really interesting story, or crack a joke, all of which may make my juggling more effective, but in essence, juggling is juggling. I can make my juggling better by adding verbiage that makes it seem more than it is, but I can't make juggling transcend what juggling is. I can't move someone in any real way, nor can I argue intense self development (a la a martial art) through the act of juggling.

Magic is somewhat similar. One can create astonishment, maybe momentary belief in real magic, which will be quickly dismissed and rationalized. I can carefully script my patter, work on it again and again and again, add things that make the trick more effective. Maybe tell a story, or a well timed joke, all of which is polishing a magic trick, however I cannot make a magic trick transcend what a magic trick is. Sure if I find a suitably gullible individual I might convince them that I am in fact magical, but to be honest that's not my goal, and I'd feel a bit uncomfortable leaving someone with such a ridiculous impression as magic being real. (One can scarcely imagine whether or not its positive for someone to believe they met a real magician, though it may be the ultimate goal to do the impossible, convincing someone that you are in fact magical, is unlikely to help them in a long run and to my mind crosses a line. Anyone that believes in real magic must have a fair amount of mental instability to begin with.)

I saw David Copperfield in Vegas over the New Year and his show was great. Smooth and nice. His patter was well scripted and thought out. His performance was well timed etc. I can appreciate all of that, however it did not move me beyond the innate capability for magic to move. (I.e. Astonishment.)

In the same way juggling for me is impressive, I think....wow, but however much window dressing is put on it, it to me is still juggling, and can't move me beyond what good juggling always creates. A wow factor, but I'm not going to be taken back to a time long forgotten, or be reminded of an experience which emotes me through juggling. It by definition doesn't speak to the true human experience, as it cannot do so because of what it is. (Much like, in my opinion magic.)

Magic for me falls into a similar category. Though as I reflect as I write this, it occurs to me that striving to make magic more of an art form, doesn't damage magic. If it results in people putting time and work into the act of performing magic rather than practicing sleights alone, then the idea is a good one, whether I believe in its veracity or not.

And in answer to one post here, there is nothing wrong with a "as long as they are entertained" attitude. To be entertained by magic is no mean feat. I can watch a thousand people performing Tivo 2.0 and think....bleagh. Yet I saw one guy perform it on the street with some fantastic performance, and a great plot and some spiel about quantum entanglement and I thoroughly enjoyed it and was entertained by the performance and hung around to watch more. Some people nearly fainted, and some people were like....wow....great trick. David Blaine (believe it or not) does have the same reactions from time to time. He toured the UK once and got some very....yeah good trick reactions. He just publishes the amazing reactions, but you're not going to get those all the time, and that doesn't necessarily make you a bad magician, you're just looking for subjective people to define your act, and that's not always a good thing.

If you do believe that magic is an art form, then it is a form of self expression, thus you must express yourself when you perform, not someone else's idea. If people like it great, but if people -appreciate- it or -respect- it then that is the goal of an art. Once again....performing magic to an empty room to be true to the art but failing to entertain people doesn't make it magic at all.

Thus to my mind, the foundation on which magic is built is entertaining people through astonishment. You may be able to dress that up and approach art if you believe magic is capable of this, but if you fail at it, nothing else you do will matter.

It occurs to me that I've gone off on a waffly tangent here and can fairly say that this became just my personal thoughts on magic as an art form in general, and isn't directed at anyone in particular.
 
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May 31, 2008
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The subject here is what separates trickery from artistry. If the best argument that people can think of is to say that getting reactions and entertaining is all that matters, then for me to explain my complex views on artistry and the artist would be casting pearls before swine. I'd be more than happy to have that discussion with people of intelligence and a desire for self-improvement, but I want to see them contribute before I fully stick my neck out.

I agree, but I'm going to say it anyway, because I think it's true. Whether you do tricks, or your an artist, I think priority number one is connecting to your audience, and entertaining them. If I'm doing a penetration I always say something like, "It's impossible to make solid pass through solid right? We all learned that in science class, but with a little sleight of hand, I'm going to try and make the impossible possible. Watch, if I just..." That kind of thing. That way I make the audience think, and connect with the effect. At least I hope I accomplish that. Well, maybe that's not a very good example, because it's sort of presenting magic as a challenge which is bad, very bad.

I have a lot of respect for you, Steerpike, but I think people who say that are correct. Even if you're not getting screaming, "Oh my god! No ******* way," Reactions you are entertaining people and bringing joy. I get joy out of that.

Wow, I didn't know I could be so deep
 
Sep 1, 2007
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It occurs to me that I've gone off on a waffly tangent here and can fairly say that this became just my personal thoughts on magic as an art form in general, and isn't directed at anyone in particular.

Nevertheless you bring up some good points.

What I'm about to say might raise a few eyebrows, but I consider Copperfield's brand of magic to actually be rather hit-and-miss when it comes to artistry. He's exceptionally good at what he does, no denying, but I don't believe he thinks of magic as being particularly artistic. Whatever artful statements in his shows are largely out of the theatrical aspect, such as his attic setting for the DeKolta Chair.

To my mind, the most artistic magicians performing today would be Penn and Teller. Yes, a lot of what they do is purely for entertainment, but they also are capable of making some very interesting sociopolitical statements through their performances. They may not be the most subtle gents on earth, but they know how to make something meaningful yet still commercial.

That's a big influence on me personally. I do believe that something artistic can be accessible. That's actually my biggest problem with bizarre magic, but that's a whole 'nother rant.

I agree, but I'm going to say it anyway, because I think it's true. Whether you do tricks, or your an artist, I think priority number one is connecting to your audience, and entertaining them.

I'm not disputing that. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with being an entertainer. My point is that there is a line separating art from non-art and depending on which side of that line you're on, realize there's no shame in calling yourself that.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
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Grand prairie TX
If pure entertainment is the highlight of ones act,it ends up looking and feeling pretty shallow.Or generic.
Why not give the magic a little bit more meaning?
As in having an almost perfect fusion of artistic sensibilty with the demands for entertainment.
 
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