Where Are Your Morals Now?

[KeoSilver]

Since morals and ethics are hot topics right now, here's a little situation to ponder.

If you had to use your sleight of hand for survival as a means of conning (or out right stealing) people out of money, food, etc would you do it?

Just adding a little fuel to thought, I remember hearing about a court case where a poor families mother stole a loaf of bread. When she went before the court and explained what her situation was like, the judge found her guilty and charged her the cost of the bread, and a fine of some sort. But the judge also charged everyone in the room to hand the guilty five dollars. She was able to pay for everything and come away with a small amount of money.


Just something I found interesting.

Edit


"According to Try and Stop Me by Bennett Cerf, La Guardia often officiated in municipal court. He handled routine misdemeanor cases, including, as Cerf wrote, a man who had stolen a loaf of bread for his starving family. La Guardia insisted on levying the fine of ten dollars. Then he said "I'm fining everyone in this courtroom fifty cents for living in a city where a man has to steal bread in order to eat!" He passed a hat and gave the fines to the defendant, who left the court with $47.50"

Citation: Mikkelson, Barbara and David; (January 1, 2008). LaGuardian Angel. Snopes. Retrieved on January 31, 2008.

 

[visualartist]

Yes I am sorry. I just had to say it..

Your ignorance and cliche way of thinking saddens me. But I disgress,lets talk(at least here) about what matters to the OP.
Actually its pretty much settled.
Everyones said it.
If you have nothing else and your hungry and cold and worst of all with a family,anyone would steal or con.
And those who say otherwise have led much too comfortable lives and/or refuse to believe they would.

 

[William Draven]

Wow... I didn't expect this thread to bloom (or perhaps explode) the way it has while I've been away today.

A lot of great points have been raised. I think I'll contribute mine now.

Certainly, to comment on what was said earlier, not everyone who lives below the poverty line is a criminal, but that's not the situation I questioned about.

The situation takes into consideration (you) a person with skills and knowledge of deception and practical applicational abilities at employing deception for entertainment or gain. The situation asks (you) if you would use your secret skills and knowledge to procure for yourself the most basic of needs, such as food, water, money, etc as given in the OP example. The OP question suggests thieft as one possible way to procure these needs, pick pocketing, gambling, conning, or any number of other "shady" methods you could think of.

Yes I agree that not everyone on skid row is a theif and con artist, however not everyone is a skilled liar, and deciever with sleight of hand either.

As Steer has pointed out, as well as a few others, once you're in a situation where it's survival of yourself or your family you'd be amazed at what compermises you'd be willing to make. I also agree with Morg... if it's do or die, then if not by the human need for self survival you'd Do. You'd make peace with your god about it at a later time. Possibly one where you're not so hungry, cold, wet, etc.

Is there a diffrence between stealing to excess, and stealing for survival? I think so. Otherwise we'd not have the wonderful story of Robin Hood. He's a hero right? Well, he was also a thief.

Lastly had I be in that situation, and all other options exhausted, I'd probably try my hand at some con games myself if it ment having food in my stomach or a room to crash in for the night.

Interesting replies so far. Good to see people thinking critically.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

My first thought is that it's always interesting to me how people equate morality to law. They're not actually the same thing. Furthermore, cons don't necessarily have 'victims' per se. For instance, have any of you heard of the idea of "paratrooping"? Where, when traveling, instead of getting a hotel room you just pick someone up at a bar for the sole purpose of having a place to stay for the night?

I've never been starving poor, but I've had to live on ramen three meals a day for extended periods of time. If I got poor enough to lose my home and couldn't get back to my family's place, then yeah, I'd find ways to get what I needed. Shoplifting some food from a large grocery chain, finding someone in a bar that would share their room or couch with me, occasionally busking, possibly conning if I thought I could get away with it.

I don't know if I would go for direct pick pocketing, but to be completely honest that's because I'm not sure I could get away with it. I'd have to find someone to let me practice it first.

I'd try to get what I needed without hurting people, but if I had to lie, cheat, con and steal to live and support myself and my loved ones, I would.

 

[Steerpike]

You're pretty negative aren't you? Yea, sure desperate situations bring crime, but not everybody will resort to crime. Believe it or not, there are some people in this world who have a conscience, and would rather do right then wrong, even when faced with desperate situations.

Do not confuse my realism with negativity. I do believe that most people want to do the right thing. But when the chips are down, you find a way to live.

Shocking as it may seem to most of you, morality is not black and white. There is such a thing as nuance.

Please, please, for the love of mother earth, don't tell me you are throwing some religious bull**** in my face right now, that you will pay the price of your actions when you are in hell. Because if that's the case, you are one of those bastards that are ruining this planet, and I hope you will die of every disease known to man at once..

Funny how everyone gets outraged by faux-spiritual talk when it's not the sunshine-and-puppies type talk about how Jesus loves everyone or whatever.

For all of those who believe you wouldn't you do not know the true answer. You live a comfortable life not plagued by the problems millions others have. Just realize that your answer has little meaning unless there is some actual fact and substance behind it which you have lived by.

Good to see somebody else who isn't up their own ass with rhetoric of moral superiority.

 

[James Smith]

This is a short article taken from my local newspaper, I think it's fitting:

"English priest says stealing not always wrong

For a priest in the northern English city of York, the commandment "Thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.

Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation that it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift - as long as they do it at large national chain stores, rather than small family businesses. Shoplifting, he added, can be justified if a person in real need is not greedy and does not take more than he or she really needs to get by.

Jones' Robin Hood-like sermon drew rebukes Tuesday from fellow clergy, shop owners and police."

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what this priest said, I'm not really a Christian (Not because I choose not to be, but because I am not looking into religion right now). I just thought that it might be of interest to this thread.

I've spent the last hour reading all of the comments in this thread and I think all of you make valid points. I have the sudden urge to listen to The Clash now and reflect. Ahh...memories...

You have gained eternal respect from me, The Clash is awesome.

 

[TheBlack&WhiteIllusionist]

The truth is, you find out exactly what your options are (and what kind of person you are) when you're staring down a dark ally holding an empty stomach. You can agree or disagree, I don't care, but when you get to the absolute bottom, right and wrong simply blur into survival. I wouldn't take a life, I wouldn't physically hurt anyone, and I wouldn't take from anyone that was having a hard time themselves, (Keep in mind that even though I say that I wouldn't do either of the last three things, faced with the worst of situations, I truly don't know what I would do to survive.) but I would gladly apologise for bumping into someone as a picked their pocket. But that's me, and everyone's different. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Hell, if i'm caught, then whatever happens to me happens. If something along these lines happens to me tomorrow and someone steals from me, then it happens, and I don't dispute this.

It's reality, and I can't possibly know what's gonna happen tomorrow, or a week from now, or a year. But I know that I value my own life enough to atleast steal someone elses paper so I can survive one more day.

So yes, I would do what I had to, to make it to tomorrow.

 

[Justin.Morris]

I still think that people put in desperate situations will not always do evil. OF course there are some who would, but for those who are claiming that to be the majority, back it up. What evidence do you base that on?

Propose that to a criminologist. Let me know how long it takes him to stop laughing in your face.

Nice reply. But I call your bluff. Prove it.

I'm not entirely sure you grasp the context of living in a third world country. I'm not saying that Kenya for example is a hotbed of aberrant behavior. I'm just saying that there's a reason Kenyans are more satisfied with their lives than Americans.

So, you know... Apples and oranges.

No actually I compared apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I mentioned inner city North Americans, and the poorest of the poor Hondurans. I was speaking about the destitute, not the poor in general or in comparison to NA.
So my reasoning still stands.

I think I'm going to throw up.

Heh, that's my goal

...Good to see somebody else who isn't up their own ass with rhetoric of moral superiority...

heh.

 

[Steerpike]

I still think that people put in desperate situations will not always do evil. OF course there are some who would, but for those who are claiming that to be the majority, back it up. What evidence do you base that on?

At what point did I use the word evil?

Nice reply. But I call your bluff. Prove it.

You're on.

A major school of thought in modern criminology is that of social development, which analyzes both biological and social factors to determine the causes and correlates with aberrant behavior. It's a combination of positivist theory and strain theory, both of which I can elaborate more on if you want.

Social development theorists have a set of risk factors they analyze in individuals and environments. Among the more common ones are education or the lack thereof, level of intelligence and learning disorders, community influences such as the adequacy of housing and the availability of transportation, and socioeconomic hardship including but not limited to abject poverty, inadequate nourishment and inadequate clothing.

Does this mean that everyone living in a broken home in the projects is going to turn out to be a kleptomaniac? No more than someone who eats fast food a couple times a week is going to die of heart disease. But to say that there is no relation between these factors and desperate decisions is to ignore what's staring you right in the face.

No actually I compared apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I mentioned inner city North Americans, and the poorest of the poor Hondurans. I was speaking about the destitute, not the poor in general or in comparison to NA.
So my reasoning still stands.

Again, I reference strain theory. There's a bit of a difference in context between living in a third world country and a(n ostensibly) developed, industrialized nation.

 

[dejavu05]

Yes. Anyone that says different is a liar.

After scanning the thread, I am quite surprised that no one has disagreed with this point yet. So you are saying that everyone in the world would do something morally wrong (stealing or conning) when put in a situation to die if they do not do the morally wrong action?

 

[Sir FansAlot]

After scanning the thread, I am quite surprised that no one has disagreed with this point yet. So you are saying that everyone in the world would do something morally wrong (stealing or conning) when put in a situation to die if they do not do the morally wrong action?

I disagreed with it sometime earlier in the thread. It is moronic to think when times are bad that you can steal.

 

[dejavu05]

I disagreed with it sometime earlier in the thread. It is moronic to think when times are bad that you can steal.

I wouldn't say so much "moronic" if he has evidence to back it up, but I would say rather quite pessimistic. To think that everyone in society would go against their morals when put in a bad, and ultimately life-threatening situation, is really a pessimistic view on society.

 

[Chicken]

I can just feel magic moving forward in this thread, which is without a doubt on-topic.

 

[Mr. Jane]

So many of you are trying to make absolutes out of other peoples post.

Not everybody will steal, or go against their morales in a tough situation but many will. If you can read my first post in this, it basically states the truth and unless any of you have gone through this or know several people who have then you have no evidence to back up your statements.

I could say I would do everything except do anything unlawful, against my morales, scam but you know what, I don't know because I haven't been put in such a situation where I had to. Neither have any of you most likely, maybe one or two but please don't speak where your mouth has never been before.

You may make assumptions or plans, but talk to any adult about such things and you'll find that they hardly ever work out like you want. It's life, don't speak such things as people always wanting to be morally right when there is no food in their belly. Survival is a bit more important than someone losing a dollar off a product.

 

[KeoSilver]

Well the reason why most have not disagreed with the point is for the reason that it's true. When people are desperate to survive, I am not talking about third world countries or anything like that. I recall reading about a motorist who gone over a ditch and into over growth. He was for the most part fine except his arm was caught and compressed in mangled metal. He figured he was going to be found but never was. The trapped arm slowly darkened and died, and even began to decay with gangrene. Cellphone just out of reach, but his pocket knife with in reach, he out of desperation says f the arm and starts to hack off his own arm to get free and call for help. What do you think the "Saw" Series is based off of?

Here is another example of how far people go to survive, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21973683/ns/today-today_people/


Now that is just a fleeting moment, what if you lived in Russia sleeping with one eye open hoping you didn't get yourself in trouble with the gangs. Most people in third world countries are in survival mode constantly. Morals no longer apply when everyone else lives without them.

Now look at the tv show "Survivor" it's a game show and you have to survive on whatever you can scavenge and win. But the idea is the same, you are on your own trying to survive and win the main prize. You make promises and then stab others in the back, stab your friends in the back all to survive. Morals mean nothing in times of survival.

Another example is the book Lord of the Flies, bunch of properly brought up british kids who turn into savages and kill each other. It may be fiction but who is to say that it can't nor wouldn't happen in real life?



My answer to the op is still yes I would use sleight of hand to survive.

 

[dejavu05]

So many of you are trying to make absolutes out of other peoples post.

Not everybody will steal, or go against their morales in a tough situation but many will. If you can read my first post in this, it basically states the truth and unless any of you have gone through this or know several people who have then you have no evidence to back up your statements.

I could say I would do everything except do anything unlawful, against my morales, scam but you know what, I don't know because I haven't been put in such a situation where I had to. Neither have any of you most likely, maybe one or two but please don't speak where your mouth has never been before.

You may make assumptions or plans, but talk to any adult about such things and you'll find that they hardly ever work out like you want. It's life, don't speak such things as people always wanting to be morally right when there is no food in their belly. Survival is a bit more important than someone losing a dollar off a product.

Your last sentense "Survival is a bit more important that someone losing a dollar off a product". What if it is more than just a dollar? What if by stealing or conning, you now put another person in a bad situation?

 

[KeoSilver]

I wouldn't say so much "moronic" if he has evidence to back it up, but I would say rather quite pessimistic. To think that everyone in society would go against their morals when put in a bad, and ultimately life-threatening situation, is really a pessimistic view on society.

Pessimistic but true. Not all truth are good ones.

 

[visualartist]

Your last sentense "Survival is a bit more important that someone losing a dollar off a product". What if it is more than just a dollar? What if by stealing or conning, you now put another person in a bad situation?

Do you think the person who is dying of hunger would think about that or care?
People put other people in bad situations all the time when they arent poor or hungry

Its called the world sweetheart

 

[dejavu05]

Pessimistic but true. Not all truth are good ones.

It's not true though in my mind. You cannot say EVERYONE would go against their morals. If everyone would go against their morals, our world would be heartless. There are people in this world that would die instead of going against their morals because they stand strong in what they believe in.

 

[dejavu05]

Do you think the person who is dying of hunger would think about that or care?
People put other people in bad situations all the time when they arent poor or hungry

Its called the world sweetheart

Yes, I do. Some people would, some people wouldn't. Some people do care and some do have that sympathy.

But now we are just starting to run in circles.