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Who is the true expert at the card table?
- Thread starter 010rusty
- Start date
Elisha Tucker is definitely the winner....
Creator of the 1800s style American Card Table. True expert in his craft.
In all seriousness though, The styles of so many people are so different that they are hard to conpare.
Creator of the 1800s style American Card Table. True expert in his craft.
In all seriousness though, The styles of so many people are so different that they are hard to conpare.
(Ahem) Arturo Ascanio.
Certainly this may raise some disputes, as his way of handling cards is so much different compared to the previously mentioned cardicians. Just to show that many "experts" at the card table have existed and still exist and they are masters in their own rights.
Certainly this may raise some disputes, as his way of handling cards is so much different compared to the previously mentioned cardicians. Just to show that many "experts" at the card table have existed and still exist and they are masters in their own rights.
Not end of discussion. People are free to post their opinions and back them up. There is not, and will not be a definitive answer as so many people take into account so many different things. Don't make this into an flame war lol.
The end of the discussion was a long time ago. If people are bringing it back up, it's fine. As stated above, these are all opinions people have of others.
Now as for my response to this,
Imo, I think Marlo was one of if not the best close up magicians in history. That being said, he focused a lot more on the actual magic side of things, as opposed to card cheating moves. While he did a lot on false deals and cheating, I don't think he has done as much as someone like (eg.) Madison. Again, this is me expressing my opinion. I think for me, the criteria for "The Expert at The Card Table" isn't magic, but card table moves (not cheating moves, card table moves. Cheating moves accompanied by other things to either A. cheat/demonstrate or B. Create a unique form of magic). If I am judging purely at on just card table moves and what you can do with them, Marlo hasn't done as much on them (though it was still a great deal. No Pun intended lol). I would back a few people over Marlo. DM is one of them, used here for an example. DM takes gambling moves to a new level. He makes stuff that isn't gambling related with Card Table moves. Is he the definitive answer? No. But I would take him over Marlo for CARD TABLE MOVES (sorry DM, but Marlo has almost everyone in his pocket when it comes to close up magic).
Note: This is not a knock on Marlo. Imo, he was the GOAT close up man, along with a few others. I'm simply stating my opinion on the topic
Maybe
Maybe I should have ended with lol?! So you would've gotten that i was joking... Not Marlo but the end of discussion thing... I don't really agree with you on the Marlo being just a great close up magician and only creating magic, there is so much more to Marlo than just this especially in the cheating and gambling realm... Like you said this is just my opinion...
Yeah. I'm saying Marlo has done a ton in gambling stuff, but not as much as others. Imo
Truth be told, we'll never really know unless someone's secret diary or death bed confessions ever surface. I am certainly no expert on the subject, but it is of my opinion that it was written by, at the least, two people. The tonal shift being one of my reasons to suspect. But as I said the world may never know the truth.
I think that it's kid of a good thing that no one knows who it is. It's hard to explain but it seems easier to learn and build off of someone when you don't have a clear example of a person who sits st the peak of where you are trying to get to.
With all do respect by your own criteria Madison has done almost nothing when compared to Marlo.
Marlo has published more magic, cheating and card moves than any other person in history.
Here is a list of the books he has published (a few were published well after his death with new material. Infact, L and L have complete DVD sets of his material that they still have not published):
- Pasteboard Presto (1938)
- Amazing Isn't It? (1941)
- Card Fan Productions (1941)
- Deck Deception (1942)
- Let's See the Deck (1942)
- Bullseye Coin Tricks (1942) with Laurie Ireland
- Shoot the Works (1943)
- Off the Top (1945)
- Future Reverse (1945)
- Matcho (1945)
- Tricks With Daub (1945) with Bill Gusias
- Marlo's Discoveries (1946)
- Marlo in Spades (1947)
- Unknown (1951)
- Ed Marlo's Lecture Notes St. Louis (1951)
- Control Systems (1952)
- The Future Classic (1953)
- The Cardician (1953)
- Unlimited (1953) with Norman Osborn
- Miracle Card Changes (Revolutionary Card Technique RCT 1) (1954)
- The Magic Seven (1954)
- Action Palm (RCT 2) (1956)
- Fingertip Control (RCT 3) (1956)
- Classical Foursome (1956)
- Side Steal (Book) (RCT 4) (1957)
- The Tabled Palm (RCT 5) (1957)
- Coining Magic (1957)
- The Faro Shuffle (RCT 6) (1958)
- Faro Notes (RCT 7) (1958)
- Marlo Meets his Match (1959)
- Riffle Shuffle Systems (1959)
- Seconds, Centers and Bottoms (RCT 8/9/10) (1960)
- The Multiple Shift (RCT 11) (1961)
- Card Switches (RCT 12)(1961)
- Card To Wallet (1961)
- Estimation (RCT 13/14) (1962)
- The K.M. Move (1962)
- Tilt (Book) (1962)
- Early Marlo (1964)
- Faro Controlled Miracles (1964)
- The Patented Shuffle (1964)
- Riffle Shuffle Finale (1967)
- Ed Marlo on the Acrobatic Cards (1968) with Jon Racherbaumer & Bob Koch
- Advanced Fingertip Control (1970)
- The Shank Shuffle (1972)
- Marlo's Objectives (1973)
- The Ten Hand Poker Stack (1974)
- The Unexpected Card Book (1974)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 1 (1976)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 2 (1977)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 3 (1979)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 4 (1981)
- Marlo's 21st Century Card Magic (1981)
- Unforgettable Wild Card (1982)
- Marlo's Plus Package (1983)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 5 (1984)
- Thirty Five Years Later (1986)
- Marlo's Magazine, Vol. 6 (1988)
- M.I.N.T., Vol. I (1988)
- So Soon? (1989)
- That's It (1990)
- The Card Magic of Ed Marlo (1993)
- M.I.N.T., Vol. II (1995)
- Ed Marlo's Revolutionary Card Technique (2003)
- Ed Marlo in the United Kingdom (2004) by Paul Gordon and Natzler Enterprises
Daniel Madison has one false deal, a bottom deal that looks like a golf swing. Marlo has written possibly the most extensive treatise of original false deals available. Ed Marlo's specialty was gambling related moves, grips, palms, cops, and deals.
He published several center deals and we have video of him executing the move flawlessly, I'm not sure if DM can do a single center deal but I'm fairly certain that we have video of Marlo performing more original variations of the center deal than Madison will ever be able to perform let alone competently.
Madison has never been close to Marlo's level when it comes to gambling moves.
When it comes to magic moves Marlo is also the clear winner. Marlo pioneered some of the most popular card magic out there. Marlo's Snap Change and the Tilt are used by everyone for a reason. His impossible changes, "Think, Turn Touch", "A Devilish Miracle", "Estimation Aces", "The Olram Subtlety", "The ATFUS Move", and Marlo's Action Top Palm are all legendary.
The reason Madison is winning in the poll is because he has a social media following. Marlo is dead so it's hard to keep up his newsletter. Madison cultivates a community of young card guys. Marlo has gained respect from the real experts in the field (Ricky Jay, Jason England, Derek Delgaudio, Michael Weber, Max Maven, Juan Tamariz, Dani Daortiz, Bill Malone, Jon Racherbaumer, Lennart Green etc.)
I think Madison is a creative guy with chops. He's good, I just don't see how he even remotely compares to someone like Ed Marlo.
He published several center deals and we have video of him executing the move flawlessly, I'm not sure if DM can do a single center deal but I'm fairly certain that we have video of Marlo performing more original variations of the center deal than Madison will ever be able to perform let alone competently.
Madison has never been close to Marlo's level when it comes to gambling moves.
When it comes to magic moves Marlo is also the clear winner. Marlo pioneered some of the most popular card magic out there. Marlo's Snap Change and the Tilt are used by everyone for a reason. His impossible changes, "Think, Turn Touch", "A Devilish Miracle", "Estimation Aces", "The Olram Subtlety", "The ATFUS Move", and Marlo's Action Top Palm are all legendary.
The reason Madison is winning in the poll is because he has a social media following. Marlo is dead so it's hard to keep up his newsletter. Madison cultivates a community of young card guys. Marlo has gained respect from the real experts in the field (Ricky Jay, Jason England, Derek Delgaudio, Michael Weber, Max Maven, Juan Tamariz, Dani Daortiz, Bill Malone, Jon Racherbaumer, Lennart Green etc.)
I think Madison is a creative guy with chops. He's good, I just don't see how he even remotely compares to someone like Ed Marlo.
Totally agree with you - I think Marlo was did more in overall magic and card work, and is absolutely legendary. His work is some of my favorite stuff. As someone who loves Marlo's work, I will fully back your statement about Marlo in Magic. His Seconds, Centers, and Bottoms is a complete treatise on false dealing (not to mention that it is the one that I am practicing, learning, and most comfortable doing).
However, I was talking more so about was Just Gambling moves, not magic overall (as I stated in the post), and saw that Marlo only has about 5 or so books on pure gambling moves and routines. As a result, I jumped to the conclusion that Madison had published more as he has 20 or so books (some of which are smaller, but still books) on Gambling moves, tools, and theory, as well as downloads of gambling routines. Furthermore, I was looking at everything about Gambling/Cheating - not just false dealing. Madison has a Tabled Index, done work on deck switches for cheating specifically, false dealing (obviously), even Opponent manipulation. So when talking purely about Card Table moves and routines based purely around card cheating (as gambling demonstrations), I gave the slight edge to Madison.
This is not saying he was better than Marlo. I personally think Marlo's work is a lot cleaner. However, it is important to note that everything differs from person to person, so you cannot have one false deal grip necessarily be better than the other. I based this more so on completeness.
After all this is said, I am not quite sure where I actually stand on this right now. I think I may be leaning to the Marlo side, as I was in one of the earlier posts I posted. Idk anymore lol
P.S. You were a bit harsh on DM there weren't you? lol
He has a pretty good center deal (It really is good), as shown by the HTCAC Trailer, starting around 2:08 (and he teaches one too),
I personally don't think his bottom deal swing is that bad, as that seems to be how he deals everything. The swing is a lot worse since he films at such a weird angle sometimes. If it works for him, then it's fine. Again, everything is subjective to one's opinion.
And I am sure experts give DM respect too, just not as much as they did Marlo.
Yeah, but Madison spent a WHOLE weekend reading the graphic novel version of Expert at the Card Table... that has to count for something. Marlo just invented multiple variations of every standard card move out there... big deal.
Reading Marlo's Arcade Dreams now and loving it.
I could watch that all day. He truly was (imo) the best close up magician. Between Him, Vernon, and a few others. Actually, the list goes pretty long, so I'll spare you the reading lol.
But is Close up Magic card magic considered card cheating or gambling demonstrations? Or do you guys have a different definition of the Expert at the Card Table? In my eyes, the Expert at the Card Table refers to just card cheating & gambling moves. Not card magic straight up.
I think "The Expert at the Card Table" is the title of a book, and it is a pointless pursuit to try to take that and come up with an all time greatest person to fill this title in a way that was never intended.
// L
That's what I'm talking about. Marlo has created more gambling moves and demonstrations than all of Madison's creations combined.
If we only look at bottom dealing (a gambling move) a partial list includes the following original versions of the deal created by Marlo:
-Marnese Bottom
-Unit Movement for Erdnase Bottom
-Cigar Bottoms
-Missing Finger Bottoms
-Greased Bottoms
-Havanna Deals
-Stud Bottoms
-SF Grip Bottoms
-Bottom Slip Cut
-Bottom Deal Stacking
-Master Grip Bottoms
-The Invisible Bottom
-The Impromptu Double Count
-Small Packet Bottom Transfer
-The Bottom Bold Steal
-The New Push Out Bottom Deal
-The Bottom Deal Count
-The Marlo Strike Bottom
-One Handed Bottom Deal
-One Handed Outward Bottom Deal
...and that's only scratching the surface on just his bottom deals. If we added his other false deals or even just the rest of his bottom deals the list would be incredibly long.
Here's an incomplete list of some of Marlo's gambling demonstrations:
-Barroom Poker
-Blindfolded Poker Deal 1942
-Gardner/Marlo Poker Routine
-The Magical Gambler
-"Poker Face"
-10 Card Poker Deal
-The Stripper Combine
-Marlo's Gambling Routine
-A Straight Flush
-Perfect Bridge Hand
-Poker Prediction
-The Perfect Stack
-A Poker Puzzle
-Poker Prediction and a Principle
-Sober Slop Poker
-The Wrong Hand
-If I Were a Card Cheat
-Faro Plus Seconds Stud
-Here's My Partner
-Exhibitionism
-Lorayne's Poker Deal
-Double Poker Control
-Call and Stock
-Center Stacking
-The Double Stack
-Bluff Poker Stack
-Any Number of Hands
-A Stacking Demo
-Power Poker #1
-Transition Poker
-Power Poker #2
-Card Stack Demo
-Marlo Miracle Aces
-Pseudo One Riffle Stacks
-Guyatts Drunken Cut
-Effect 4
- The Surprise Packet
-Pseudo Centers
-10 Hands Stack
-Repeat Challenge Poker Deals
-The Spectator's Deal
-The Re-setting Riffle Shuffle Stack
-Deal Us In
-Swift Poker Deal
-Poker Dream
... that might be a quarter od just the poker demonstrations Marlo has published.
Here's a list of just Marlo's deck switches:
-Marlo's Covered Deck Switch
-Another Marlo Deck Switch
-Marlo's Double Undercut Deck Switch
-Cased Switches - 1st Approach: To switch one deck for another
-Additions to Switch Out
-More Deck Switches (6 methods are taught in this section of Marlo's magazine)
-Key Move Extension
-Pseudo Deck Switch
-Marlo Card Switch
-Suit Selection Routine
-First Switch, Second Switch, Third Switch
-Ruffle Shuffle
-Natural Deck Switch
-Marlo Deck Switch
Madison has great work with the index that's for sure. Advocate is incredible! That said Marlo has extensive work on Indexes as well He has 3 or 4 pocket indexes, 3 or 4 tabled indexes and 6 to 8 alternative indexes.
Yeah, I was a little harsh. I don't hate Madison. I have used Angle Z since it was written up in his second set of notes. The Advocate is a great device. I think he is creative and talented.
I don't love his work on deck switching, the cop, or his false deals.
When it comes to creation of ANY type of card magic no one can get close to Ed Marlo. I mentioned his books above, these are all over 100 pages long. I didn't include his manuscripts, DVD's, or magazine/book contributions.